Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[peng]

I guess this is also what you see reflected with the 5102A performance in the Denon 4800 compared to the 1690 in the Onkyo/Pioneer brothers/sisters. However a few observations;

• how come the 3800 can't bring the same performance with the same input levels as the 4800 and
• why aren't the AKM's in the 3700/4700v1 performing around 107 dB as they theoretically could

It seems there are other SINAD bottle necks as well.

Anyway, this remains a theoretical discussion. Still the top-tier AVR's from Pioneer/Integra/Onkyo use expensive ESS DAC's as does Yamaha. And of course Denon/Marantz as well. Interesting to know how such difference it makes in real life. In mine not as I explained in other posts. But the marketing thoughts behind it trigger me...

My two cents to your questions:

1) The 3800's SINAD vs output was measured in a different way as Amir explained, that could contribute to part of the difference.
2) "Typical" is just typical, we don't know the exact definition but obvious it means the "typical" THD+N of -93 dB for the PCM5102A could vary a bit, + or -, I guess depending on the conditions when measured.
3) SINAD, is the inverse of THD+N, noise is included so it is highly possible that the 4800 has less noise, contributing to higher SINAD.
4) Other reasons I don't know about, or understand, would need some dac experts to chime in and educate us curious people.

Also keep in mind that Amir has measured two each of the AV8805 (one with AKM, the other with ESS DAC), AV7705 (same AKM DAC) and one each of the SR7015 and SR6014 (same AKM DAC), even for the same models measured (7705), the measured pre out SINADs were slightly different two. And the SR6014 actually measured better than the SR7015, though only slightly.

That, to certain extent, is the nature of such bench measurements, they may be precise, but there are other variables that make repeatability not guaranteed, even if measured the exact same way on the same day.

 

[peng]

• why aren't the AKM's in the 3700/4700v1 performing around 107 dB as they theoretically could

It seems there are other SINAD bottle necks as well.

You got it, the volume chip is also a bottleneck, not for those that uses the TI chip, but definitely for those with the AKM chips.

The typical THD+N for the volume chip is about -104 to -108 dB (0.0004 or 0.0006%, typical) depending on implementation:

https://www.nisshinbo-microdevices.co.jp/en/pdf/datasheet/NJU72343_E.pdf

The OPAs used may also be another bottleneck. For example, the NJM8080 that D+M have been using, has THD+N 0.0005%, again, "Typical".

By the way, you can see why I don't believe in the "discrete" HDAMs would do what Marantz said they would do to those AVRs and AVPs, because of those other bottlenecks.

Anyway, this remains a theoretical discussion. Still the top-tier AVR's from Pioneer/Integra/Onkyo use expensive ESS DAC's as does Yamaha. And of course Denon/Marantz as well. Interesting to know how such difference it makes in real life. In mine not as I explained in other posts. But the marketing thoughts behind it trigger me...

 

[dlaloum]

I guess this is also what you see reflected with the 5102A performance in the Denon 4800 compared to the 1690 in the Onkyo/Pioneer brothers/sisters. However a few observations;

• how come the 3800 can't bring the same performance with the same input levels as the 4800 and
• why aren't the AKM's in the 3700/4700v1 performing around 107 dB as they theoretically could

It seems there are other SINAD bottle necks as well.

Anyway, this remains a theoretical discussion. Still the top-tier AVR's from Pioneer/Integra/Onkyo use expensive ESS DAC's as does Yamaha. And of course Denon/Marantz as well. Interesting to know how such difference it makes in real life. In mine not as I explained in other posts. But the marketing thoughts behind it trigger me...

The circuit used on the 3800 is going to be substantially different to the one in the 4800, even though the same DAC chip is in use, specifically the clocking/timing part of the process, as there is a jitter reduction circuit in play in the 4800...

So we are definitely not comparing apples and apples...

And presumably once they were redesigning the circuit for improved jitter performance, they may have focused on achieving better noise control, etc.... After all, this is the higher end model, it would be embarrassing if after all the additional effort, performance was the same!

 

[dlaloum]

My two cents to your questions:

1) The 3800's SINAD vs output was measured in a different way as Amir explained, that could contribute to part of the difference.
2) "Typical" is just typical, we don't know the exact definition but obvious it means the "typical" THD+N of -93 dB for the PCM5102A could vary a bit, + or -, I guess depending on the conditions when measured.
3) SINAD, is the inverse of THD+N, noise is included so it is highly possible that the 4800 has less noise, contributing to higher SINAD.
4) Other reasons I don't know about, or understand, would need some dac experts to chime in and educate us curious people.

Also keep in mind that Amir has measured two each of the AV8805 (one with AKM, the other with ESS DAC), AV7705 (same AKM DAC) and one each of the SR7015 and SR6014 (same AKM DAC), even for the same models measured (7705), the measured pre out SINADs were slightly different two. And the SR6014 actually measured better than the SR7015, though only slightly.

That, to certain extent, is the nature of such bench measurements, they may be precise, but there are other variables that make repeatability not guaranteed, even if measured the exact same way on the same day.

The difference is sufficiently small that the "error bars" on the measurements would overlap... the difference would not be statistically significant

 

[Dal1as]

There are definately other matters at play. The 6700h tested higher that he 3700 and 4700 with the same akm dac.

Is it all noticable? Probably not.

 

[Brambo67]

The circuit used on the 3800 is going to be substantially different to the one in the 4800, even though the same DAC chip is in use, specifically the clocking/timing part of the process, as there is a jitter reduction circuit in play in the 4800...

So we are definitely not comparing apples and apples...

And presumably once they were redesigning the circuit for improved jitter performance, they may have focused on achieving better noise control, etc.... After all, this is the higher end model, it would be embarrassing if after all the additional effort, performance was the same!

The 4700 has the same clock jitter reducing chip as the 4800. Also the Alpha32 processing is implemented in the 4700. Still, the 3600 and 3700 perform better in Amir's tests (without both impelmented) The 6700 even has the monoltithic amps as the 4800 has and also was/is built in Japan. The amp part however performs below 3600, 3700 and 4700. I guess not every 'improvement' is one. The layout of the board in the 4800 appear far cleaner than the 3600. 3700, 4700, 6700 ánd the 3800. Could make a difference, could not. As I really don't belief in 'selected' DAC chips (I also don't belief Tesla putting 'the best' electro motors in their Model 3/Y performance version...) I guess;

• between two models of the same line differences can appear, even if ever so slightly
• from the 3700 to the 6700 and with the 3800 and 4800 the DAC performance is in the same ballpark, even if theoretically they could have gotten much more from the AKM's. I think this is due to how they engineered it
• If you look at amp performance, be it pre or internal, they outperform most other brands and models. Which is really a job good done!
• when the fire @akm affected their supply chains they could have just replaced the two AKM's by TI PCM1690 as these are 32 bit 8-channel DAC's. It would have been cheaper ans easier to realize, instead they looked at the 8500 and 110 with stereo DAC's in a multiple setup and re-engineered the mid-tier machines. This was both more costly as well as time consuming. I am 99,9% certain in a blind A-B comparison between V1 and V2 boxes, no one would be able to hear the difference
• like we all know; we are all wanting the best components for our (hard earned) € or $ can buy. Downgrading components is not an option even if the performance may even be improved....

I see it like this; 'best' @asr is by many looked upon as having the best THD+N score. As long as amps are not lagging too much behind it's okay. I belief it comes down to what you or I think is best. I would appreciate the inclusion of DIRAC just to see how this could improve real life performance of my 4700 in my living room. As the 4800 has this, even if you need to pay for he license, is is best for me. The A1 is way too expensive for what I want and I only need 11 channel processing and want to play my front left and right through an external amp anyway as the receiver is my pre-amp in that case. A 4800, with DIRAC for a 4700 price would be my best. A little more power would be nice but not needed. If they will be putting in better DAC's its nice but also not needed.

 

[connta]

Gave up on AVR upgrade, re read my old Onkyo 646 specs and it has an AKM chip, it drives my speakers totally fine, plenty of headroom, no issues, it has proven reliable, etc. Dropping 1600e on a machine thats gonna be bought in the biggest turmoil Denon since i remember to get what, preouts and XT32 room correction, i use REW anyway and the room doesnt need much correcting either.

Thanks everyone for the info.

 

[Brambo67]

Gave up on AVR upgrade, re read my old Onkyo 646 specs and it has an AKM chip, it drives my speakers totally fine, plenty of headroom, no issues, it has proven reliable, etc. Dropping 1600e on a machine thats gonna be bought in the biggest turmoil Denon since i remember to get what, preouts and XT32 room correction, i use REW anyway and the room doesnt need much correcting either.

Thanks everyone for the info.

I can imagine. 4k available: check, Atmos: check, proper DAC: check, can set up room equalization with more advanced tools: check. So indeed if 5.1.2 is suffice for your room and needs, sit on your money and wait for better days.

 

[LunaTempesta]

Hello, first time poster, awful long time reader!

I have always trusted this site in my gear selection and it has not let me down yet. My old AVR broke and i need a replacement, got a good deal on x4700 but i read that there is a hw revision out there (70001 and above SN) that is untested and many say inferior to the original. :/ Seeing how x3800 got pretty much downgraded for a decent chunk more money i'd rather go fishing in used gear if thats the case with this "late" x4700.

The seller should be able to provide me with SN for the unit he has but i want to have a decision for him either way. If anyone can shed any insight, it would be appreciated.

Probably not of much help but I remember starting to dig into these forums when I got my 4700. The info you're looking for is probably in the review topic if you didn't already find it. I myself doubt you'll hear much of a difference with normal listening, maybe critical listeners of music will. I opted for a model with the ''good'' tested dac, but might be harder to find now as that's almost 2 years ago.

 

[Sebbie]

Hello guys i'm new here!
Currently i have a yamaha rx-v3800 (time to update).
I use it as a simple 5.1 setup; The fronts going from pre out to a Yamaha P2200 that as a 1.26v input sensibility.
I'm considering the x4700 to replace the rx-v3800 because i need HDMI 2.0 but my main focus is on DAC quality for stereo music use and i've got a love for akm sound.
I don't want to stack up a stereo dac to keep the setup simple and WAF.
Of course i would go for a used from one from the first batch.
I would like to still use the avr for center and surround.
Do i understand well that this unit is able to only disable the front L + R amps to have the dac at its maximum potential?
If true, is that also true for the x6700?
Thank you very much for your answers and for this great forum! Without you i would be heading to a RX-A2080.

 

[connta]

You will be hard pressed to find AKM equipped 4700h, used only, if youre lucky a good refurb.

 

[Sebbie]

You will be hard pressed to find AKM equipped 4700h, used only, if youre lucky a good refurb.

in france it looks like people are more after the 3600x maybe because of you guys.

 

[peng]

Hello guys i'm new here!
Currently i have a yamaha rx-v3800 (time to update).
I use it as a simple 5.1 setup; The fronts going from pre out to a Yamaha P2200 that as a 1.26v input sensibility.
I'm considering the x4700 to replace the rx-v3800 because i need HDMI 2.0 but my main focus is on DAC quality for stereo music use and i've got a love for akm sound.
I don't want to stack up a stereo dac to keep the setup simple and WAF.
Of course i would go for a used from one from the first batch.
I would like to still use the avr for center and surround.
Do i understand well that this unit is able to only disable the front L + R amps to have the dac at its maximum potential?
If true, is that also true for the x6700?
Thank you very much for your answers and for this great forum! Without you i would be heading to a RX-A2080.

If you want to be sure about the AK4458 on board then it would may be better to get an used AVR-X4500H if you only need HDMI 2.0, otherwise you would have to get the serial number from the seller of an used X4700H in order to know whether it has the AKM or TI DAC chip.

Yes you can disconnect the front left and right channels in the X4300H through X4700H using the amp assign feature, but if your stereo amp's input sensitivity is 1.26V then whether you disconnect the internal amps or not, the pre out/DAC would still reach it's full potential in terms of SINAD/THD+N. It's performance only drops from about 1.4 to 1.5 V based on the ASR measurements.

 

[connta]

If you want to be sure about the AK4458 on board then it would may be better to get an used AVR-X4500H if you only need HDMI 2.0, otherwise you would have to get the serial number from the seller of an used X4700H in order to know whether it has the AKM or TI DAC chip.

Yes you can disconnect the front left and right channels in the X4300H through X4700H using the amp assign feature, but if your stereo amp's input sensitivity is 1.26V then whether you disconnect the internal amps or not, the pre out/DAC would still reach it's full potential in terms of SINAD/THD+N. It's performance only drops from about 1.4 to 1.5 V based on the ASR measurements.

The serial method isnt correct, i got a brand new unit that fits the old serial key and it is far more likely that it is a TI DAC.

in france it looks like people are more after the 3600x maybe because of you guys.

3600 is like the safest bet its properly done, 7 series are a gamble, series 8 are proven downgrade... so, yeah. I was in a market for 4700x but theres no way of knowing will you get an AKM unit (they dont print production dates anywhere that i found) so i kinda quit on the idea and then i got offered a new unit at 1300e and i YOLO'd it. I suspect it is not an AKM unit but im not gonna mess with opening it just yet.


Compared to old 646 Onkyo, tbh, there isnt much of an improvement. I'd even dare to say, uncorrected input (multichannel, not pure) Onkyo sounds 2 classes above Denon. Once XT32 gets its hands on Denon, situation improves in favor of it but again, not that much since it kinda really sounds bad uncorrected. Onkyo auto correct on the other hand isnt worth a dime so you gotta be proficient with REW. When all is matched, only thing i see thats clearly better on the 4700x is "all channel stereo". Denon seems to have better power handling for DBR62's i believe, it is cleaner sounding for sure. Oh, yeah, speakers are 5xDBR62.

In all other regards, i'd fail a blind test in like 85% of situations (when all is matched).

 

[Sebbie]

If you want to be sure about the AK4458 on board then it would may be better to get an used AVR-X4500H if you only need HDMI 2.0, otherwise you would have to get the serial number from the seller of an used X4700H in order to know whether it has the AKM or TI DAC chip.

Yes you can disconnect the front left and right channels in the X4300H through X4700H using the amp assign feature, but if your stereo amp's input sensitivity is 1.26V then whether you disconnect the internal amps or not, the pre out/DAC would still reach it's full potential in terms of SINAD/THD+N. It's performance only drops from about 1.4 to 1.5 V based on the ASR measurements.

oh boy. are you saying that the x3600 or x3700 dac would perform as good with my P2200?

 

[Sebbie]

The serial method isnt correct, i got a brand new unit that fits the old serial key and it is far more likely that it is a TI DAC.



3600 is like the safest bet its properly done, 7 series are a gamble, series 8 are proven downgrade... so, yeah. I was in a market for 4700x but theres no way of knowing will you get an AKM unit (they dont print production dates anywhere that i found) so i kinda quit on the idea and then i got offered a new unit at 1300e and i YOLO'd it. I suspect it is not an AKM unit but im not gonna mess with opening it just yet.

Maybe i can wait a bit and find one that has been bought before the akm factory burn.

 

[connta]

I didnt find a way how to confirm date of manufacture on the box or the unit, if the seller doesnt have a receipt of some sort, determining for sure will be hard.

 

[peng]

oh boy. are you saying that the x3600 or x3700 dac would perform as good with my P2200?

Of course, the 3600, 3700, 4700, even the 4400, have the same volume control IC (nju72343), opamps, and DAC IC (AK4458). The 3600, 3700, 4700 have very comparable bench test results. Are you saying the 4700 that has the AKM IC would perform better than the 3600 and 3700 used as preamp/dac with the P2200? What would be the reason?

Actually, even the 3800's SINAD is about 10 dB better (at 1.3 V) than the P2200, making it not the bottleneck in the input audio signal path. But you said you wanted the AKM DAC chip.

 

[peng]

The serial method isnt correct, i got a brand new unit that fits the old serial key and it is far more likely that it is a TI DAC.



3600 is like the safest bet its properly done, 7 series are a gamble, series 8 are proven downgrade... so, yeah. I was in a market for 4700x but theres no way of knowing will you get an AKM unit (they dont print production dates anywhere that i found) so i kinda quit on the idea and then i got offered a new unit at 1300e and i YOLO'd it. I suspect it is not an AKM unit but im not gonna mess with opening it just yet.


Compared to old 646 Onkyo, tbh, there isnt much of an improvement. I'd even dare to say, uncorrected input (multichannel, not pure) Onkyo sounds 2 classes above Denon. Once XT32 gets its hands on Denon, situation improves in favor of it but again, not that much since it kinda really sounds bad uncorrected. Onkyo auto correct on the other hand isnt worth a dime so you gotta be proficient with REW. When all is matched, only thing i see thats clearly better on the 4700x is "all channel stereo". Denon seems to have better power handling for DBR62's i believe, it is cleaner sounding for sure. Oh, yeah, speakers are 5xDBR62.

In all other regards, i'd fail a blind test in like 85% of situations (when all is matched).

Did you get the serial number method directly from Denon? If it is from a poster, unless he included the link to the source, then it may not be reliable.
The other way is to go by the manufacturing year. According to D+M/Sound United, the DAC chip was substituted in the spring of 2021.

Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

Per the Denon website (Google translation from Japanese) in Japan in the product information for at least the X4700H and X6700H AVR's: "The D / A converter IC has been changed since the spring of 2021." The previous DAC IC in the two products is the 8-channel AK4458. This is a rather...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Sebbie]

Of course, the 3600, 3700, 4700, even the 4400, have the same volume control IC (nju72343), opamps, and DAC IC (AK4458). The 3600, 3700, 4700 have very comparable bench test results. Are you saying the 4700 that has the AKM IC would perform better than the 3600 and 3700 used as preamp/dac with the P2200? What would be the reason?

No i did not say this. i was just incorrectly thinking that the fact it could disable its L+R amps would make it better at pre out.