Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

[patoulol]

I assume you meant X3700H and X4700H. In that case I would do option 2, or option 2 but substitute the 4700 with the 3700. Either way, I can add up to 9 more external amp channels down the road, and can do it in two steps.

yes I made a mistake ... well x3700 and x4700

ok thanks for your opinion. Is purifi really a "plus" for you?

 

[notabenem]

BTW: Is there a way to hook the X3700 up to an external multichannel DAC through some kind of digital link, while retaining the decoding and DSP capabilities?

 

[CMOT]

Sigh. Pretty sure no.

 

[Macfox]

I think they're counting on a low adoption rate of the add on box. Can you provide some guidance? I'm a casual gamer. If I purchased an Xbox Series X, the latest and greatest in that line, can I set my HDMI 2.1 output to say, 4K and 60 Hz, thereby avoiding the 8K-4K/120Hz bug? If that's the case, I won't bother with the add on box.

I'd still order it for free, even if unused, because of potential resale value. The person buying your receiver might want to use 4K120 or 8K60.

 

[peng]

yes I made a mistake ... well x3700 and x4700

ok thanks for your opinion. Is purifi really a "plus" for you?

Not particularly, a little newer design and a little higher gain but I could be wrong, just going by memory.

 

[Shives]

Anyone, who owns the X3700H: could you please check if in "AUTO" surround mode the AVR adds any reverb or echo to the dialogues in a setup using a phantom CENTER?

Reason: I want to change my AVR (because I can't fit a center speaker in my room). My old Marantz SR5003 apparently first mixes the C channel to the L and R channels and afterwards does all the surround processing for L and R messing up the dialogues quite a bit by audible echo/reverb added to it. If I put it into "SOURCE DIRECT" mode, then the dialogues are clearer (without echo) but the EQ and surround effects are obviously lost.

I don’t know if it’s been answered, but when tinkering around with my center, I was playing 2ch phantom center. I did not have echo issues. I can try again for you, if you needed.

 

[Shives]

Question. I did search hidden menu did not see it.

I know it’s there, but do we have a post to the hidden menus and what they do? I know about the HDMI settings, cable check.. I did not explore this well. Do we have a map of the functions listed someplace?
Just wondering what settings are there and things we could do to help situations or test. Lol, be nice if it told us the loads it sees per ch. a pipe dream. But you get my question?
Thanks all!!

 

[AdamG]

Question. I did search hidden menu did not see it.

I know it’s there, but do we have a post to the hidden menus and what they do? I know about the HDMI settings, cable check.. I did not explore this well. Do we have a map of the functions listed someplace?
Just wondering what settings are there and things we could do to help situations or test. Lol, be nice if it told us the loads it sees per ch. a pipe dream. But you get my question?
Thanks all!!

Hi Shives,

If your really interested and don’t mind a bit of a long read. This site and thread covers just about every detail and nuance concerning the Denon 2020 AVR Models. Including this one.

Here is the link: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-2020-denon-avr-owners-thread-faq-posts-1-8.3151088/

 

[Shives]

Hi Shives,

If your really interested and don’t mind a bit of a long read. This site and thread covers just about every detail and nuance concerning the Denon 2020 AVR Models. Including this one.

Here is the link: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-2020-denon-avr-owners-thread-faq-posts-1-8.3151088/

Thanks I’ll look into that. Appreciate it.

 

[BullBuchanan]

So I was ready to click Buy on one of these until I read Amir's measurements about the clipping. This is coming hot off the heels of me watching the Audioholics review that showed 4v without clipping. I searched through the thread and never found a definitive answer to this. Did Denon lie to Audioholics?


AVR's depreciate pretty rapidly, and I'd hate to be stuck with a small selection of amplification to be able to choose from here. Also, and this is a super noob question - what determines the voltage that's sent to the AVR outputs when running in processor mode with a dedicated amp?

 

[amper42]

The Denon 3700 with Audyssey is a great resource for my speakers. I don't hear any distortion with it and you have the ability to use it as a preamp only if you want more power. I have a Hegel H90 too. While it sounds great with my BMR's in the 12x13' office, the Denon receiver's Audyssey EQ is incredibly nice at opening up the sound with my Revel F328Be. Add to that the ability to create your own sound curve and you start to realize it can fit anyones musical taste.

In my opinion, it's easy to become way too concerned about when the Denon internal amps might start to clip. There are so many different levels where you could define that. Is it 1% distortion or is it .01%. At lower levels, it's not an audible event. You should understand Amir's definition is at a low level while Audioholics review is at a higher level. I have never had an issue with audible distortion while using the Denon receiver in preamp mode or with the internal amps. In most cases, many of us are using 4W of power to get to a normal 75dB listening level. You won't reach clipping at normal volume levels with relatively efficient speakers.

That's two paragraphs to basically say don't be worried about nothing. The Denon 3700 is a powerful receiver and Audyssey is an amazing EQ tool that's wonderfully easy to use.

 

[BullBuchanan]

The Denon 3700 with Audyssey is a great resource for my speakers. I don't hear any distortion with it and you have the ability to use it as a preamp only if you want more power. I have a Hegel H90 too. While it sounds great with my BMR's in the 12x13' office, the Denon receiver's Audyssey EQ is incredibly nice at opening up the sound with my Revel F328Be. Add to that the ability to create your own sound curve and you start to realize it can fit anyones musical taste.

In my opinion, it's easy to become way too concerned about when the Denon internal amps might start to clip. There are so many different levels where you could define that. Is it 1% distortion or is it .01%. At lower levels, it's not an audible event. You should understand Amir's definition is at a low level where Audioholics review is at a higher level. I have never had an issue with audible distortion while using the Denon receiver in preamp mode or with the internal amps. In most cases, many of us are using 4W of power to get to a normal 75dB listening level. You won't reach clipping at normal volume levels with relatively efficient speakers.

That's two paragraphs to basically say don't be worried about nothing. The Denon 3700 is a powerful receiver and Audyssey is an amazing EQ tool that's wonderfully easy to use.

I'm not so much concerned with the distortion ratings of the amps in use, it's when using it as a pre-pro. Amir's numbers suggest that this AVR is effectively unusable with the majority of amps on the market that carry a sensitivity higher than 1.4v RMS, while Denon & audioholics claim otherwise. I know with certainty that it's going to get an external amp with this, so I think it's important to know if I'm sacrificing 20db of SINAD for the privilege of using this AVR.

 

[amper42]

I'm not so much concerned with the distortion ratings of the amps in use, it's when using it as a pre-pro. Amir's numbers suggest that this AVR is effectively unusable with the majority of amps on the market that carry a sensitivity higher than 1.4v RMS, while Denon & audioholics claim otherwise. I know with certainty that it's going to get an external amp with this, so I think it's important to know if I'm sacrificing 20db of SINAD for the privilege of using this AVR.

You get better specs with the miniDSP SHD or a higher SINAD rated DAC but the convenience of being able to easily switch between 7.2.4 home theatre and Stereo mode with the push of a button on the Denon remote is appealing. I have the Monolith 7x200 and the March Audio P452 Purifi based amp and use both with the Denon receiver. The Monolith is a better match with the internal Denon amps gain - but if you are using Stereo with Preamp mode only it really doesn't matter.

The Purifi lower 26.5dB gain will cause Audyssey to automatically compensate by increasing the levels by 2dB. It's a small difference. At 60 on the volume control my F328Be speakers are rocking the room. I can't imagine wanting to reach 80 on the volume control which takes the Denon 3700 to 2.0 Vrms and THD+N Ratio of 0.001324%. My ears would be uncomfortable at those levels for any length of time.

If you are listening at reasonable levels the lower gain on the Purifi based amp doesn't make much difference. The only time I have had issues is trying to mix various amps with significantly different gain levels. In that case, I prefer using the Monolith 7X200 instead or other amps with a similar 29dB gain design.

 

[notabenem]

With the amps on, you are OK up to 1.4 volt output before it nose dives. So when selecting an external amplifier for channels beyond fronts, make sure it can output its maximum power at or below 1.4 volts (usually specified as "sensitivity").

So what amp would you recommend using in conjunction with this AVR? Hypex NC400 or rather the Purifi et400A? Something else entirely?

 

[patoulol]

So what amp would you recommend using in conjunction with this AVR? Hypex NC400 or rather the Purifi et400A? Something else entirely?

I testified on the x4700 thread I do not hear any difference between the PURIFI and the internal amp of the denon

aim for a not ruinous Hypex Ncore NC252MP, they have a voltage of 1.66v

or keep your money

 

[peng]

So I was ready to click Buy on one of these until I read Amir's measurements about the clipping. This is coming hot off the heels of me watching the Audioholics review that showed 4v without clipping. I searched through the thread and never found a definitive answer to this. Did Denon lie to Audioholics?

The 4 V (just an approximate figure I think) without clipping Gene might have referred to in one of his videos or in his review on the AVR-X3600H, was about the maximum unclipped preamp output voltage when the AVR is used in preamp mode. In preamp mode, the pre outs are disconnected from the AVR's power amp inputs so the power amps won't be amplifying a signal and there won't be clipping (nothing to clip).

In the AVR-X3600H review, Gene stated:
Denon AVR-X3600H 9.2CH IMAX Enhanced AV Receiver Offers Best In Class Features | Audioholics

"With the AVR-X3600H configured to reroute the main front L/R internal amplifiers, the preamp is physically disconnected from the power amp. This allows the preamp stage full capability of delivering up to 4Vrms unclipped when connected to external amplification as can be seen in the following output vs distortion plot courtesy of Sound United Engineering."

If you don't use preamp mode, the preamp outputs will remain connected to the inputs of the AVR's own power amps. When the power amps are driven to higher than their rated output level, they naturally will clip and will affect the performance of the preamp outputs possibly via some forms of feedback, coupling and/or other ways, but that is just my understanding from 20,000 feet. For an official explanation you would have to ask D or M, but good luck to that, as you would likely have to contact their engineering team to get an answer.

Note: Even when no speakers are connected to the AVR amp's output (speaker binding posts), the power amps will still amplify the signal voltage so their output voltage will clip when the input signal gets high enough.

Also note that as Gene explained in his review on the AVR-X3600H that does not have preamp mode, you can still disconnect the pre outs to the front left and right channel power amps using the amp assign feature but again, in that case you can only do that to the front left and front right channels. You should be able to do the same, if necessary, with the AVR-X3700H.

AVR's depreciate pretty rapidly, and I'd hate to be stuck with a small selection of amplification to be able to choose from here. Also, and this is a super noob question - what determines the voltage that's sent to the AVR outputs when running in processor mode with a dedicated amp?

Whether you are in preamp mode or not, the pre out (preamp output) voltage will depends on the input level, and also, obviously the volume control setting.

 

[patoulol]

The 4 V (just an approximate figure I think) without clipping Gene might have referred to in one of his videos or in his review on the AVR-X3600H, was about the maximum unclipped preamp output voltage when the AVR is used in preamp mode. In preamp mode, the pre outs are disconnected from the AVR's power amp inputs so the power amps won't be amplifying a signal and there won't be clipping (nothing to clip).

In the AVR-X3600H review, Gene stated:
Denon AVR-X3600H 9.2CH IMAX Enhanced AV Receiver Offers Best In Class Features | Audioholics

"With the AVR-X3600H configured to reroute the main front L/R internal amplifiers, the preamp is physically disconnected from the power amp. This allows the preamp stage full capability of delivering up to 4Vrms unclipped when connected to external amplification as can be seen in the following output vs distortion plot courtesy of Sound United Engineering."

If you don't use preamp mode, the preamp outputs will remain connected to the inputs of the AVR's own power amps. When the power amps are driven to higher than their rated output level, they naturally will clip and will affect the performance of the preamp outputs possibly via some forms of feedback, coupling and/or other ways, but that is just my understanding from 20,000 feet. For an official explanation you would have to ask D or M, but good luck to that, as you would likely have to contact their engineering team to get an answer.

Note: Even when no speakers are connected to the AVR amp's output (speaker binding posts), the power amps will still amplify the signal voltage so their output voltage will clip when the input signal gets high enough.

Also note that as Gene explained in his review on the AVR-X3600H that does not have preamp mode, you can still disconnect the pre outs to the front left and right channel power amps using the amp assign feature but again, in that case you can only do that to the front left and front right channels. You should be able to do the same, if necessary, with the AVR-X3700H.



Whether you are in preamp mode or not, the pre out (preamp output) voltage will depends on the input level, and also, obviously the volume control setting.

In conclusion @peng , I think we should not ask more questions ... unless you push your amp to the max like -6db

with for example power amps ext on L C R

Do you agree?

 

[peng]

In conclusion @peng , I think we should not ask more questions ... unless you push your amp to the max like -6db

with for example power amps ext on L C R

Do you agree?

I would say it depends.., though you may be right in a lot of, if not most cases.

For the X3700H HDMI input test, Amir had the volume at 82.5 to get 2 V, 82.5 is about +2.5 on the relative scale so at -6, it would have been 8.5 below 82.5 and the output voltage would be well below 1 V for that test.

According to Amir, he would normally use input level of 0 dBFS for that test. So if you use digital inputs to play a blue ray movie, such as the Star War series, at -6 the pre out voltage should be well below 1 V maximum. That is assuming Audyssey/Auto setup has not set the levels too much higher than 0 dB. +1 or 2 dB is fine but if it is something like +6, then volume at -6 would effectively be "0" with level trim setting at "0" obviously.

So I think it is better to assess this on individual case basis, not generalized. That's just my understanding, and I could be wrong.
@trl and other members may know more for sure.
Are you getting the "THX Reference Level" in the listening position? Do we really need such an output level in our home-theater rooms? | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Links that may help too:
WHAT IS THE REFERENCE LEVEL? - THX
THX reference level explained - Acoustic Frontiers

 

[patoulol]

okay, thanks @peng

other solution :

put a PURIFI on L and R which has an input of 2.35v (internal amplifier L R : OFF)

and a Hypex Ncore NC252MP which has an input of 1.66v


so we win in this situation, right?

 

[BullBuchanan]

The 4 V (just an approximate figure I think) without clipping Gene might have referred to in one of his videos or in his review on the AVR-X3600H, was about the maximum unclipped preamp output voltage when the AVR is used in preamp mode. In preamp mode, the pre outs are disconnected from the AVR's power amp inputs so the power amps won't be amplifying a signal and there won't be clipping (nothing to clip).

In the AVR-X3600H review, Gene stated:
Denon AVR-X3600H 9.2CH IMAX Enhanced AV Receiver Offers Best In Class Features | Audioholics

"With the AVR-X3600H configured to reroute the main front L/R internal amplifiers, the preamp is physically disconnected from the power amp. This allows the preamp stage full capability of delivering up to 4Vrms unclipped when connected to external amplification as can be seen in the following output vs distortion plot courtesy of Sound United Engineering."

If you don't use preamp mode, the preamp outputs will remain connected to the inputs of the AVR's own power amps. When the power amps are driven to higher than their rated output level, they naturally will clip and will affect the performance of the preamp outputs possibly via some forms of feedback, coupling and/or other ways, but that is just my understanding from 20,000 feet. For an official explanation you would have to ask D or M, but good luck to that, as you would likely have to contact their engineering team to get an answer.

Note: Even when no speakers are connected to the AVR amp's output (speaker binding posts), the power amps will still amplify the signal voltage so their output voltage will clip when the input signal gets high enough.

Also note that as Gene explained in his review on the AVR-X3600H that does not have preamp mode, you can still disconnect the pre outs to the front left and right channel power amps using the amp assign feature but again, in that case you can only do that to the front left and front right channels. You should be able to do the same, if necessary, with the AVR-X3700H.



Whether you are in preamp mode or not, the pre out (preamp output) voltage will depends on the input level, and also, obviously the volume control setting.

Ok so if I understand correctly, assuming you have your amplifier running at maximum gain, your pre-pro will effectively attenuate that by sending a specific voltage correlated to the pre-amp volume. As the pre-pro volume increased so does the voltage. At the voltage sensitivity defined by the amp (e.g. 1.4V RMS) the amp will output full power. Is that accurate?

If so, based on the rest of what I'm hearing, you're saying that 1.4V output cap before significant distortion only happens when you leave the amps of some channels on, while also using the preouts for some channels and that if used in pre-amp mode that behavior doesn''t manifest?