DACs that better compensate for noise

[100rounddrum]

My simple measurements seem to be able to distinguish timing (distance) between the left and right speaker to less than one sample time.

Would that not be something included in or indicative of some level of measurment performance in the time domain?

---

Also, step and impulse response measurement calculated from a swept sine are virtually identical to a recording of an actual single byte impulse or step as created with a square wave, so I don't see a problem there. I admit I was surprised by that. Data available if you care.

Yes, a single byte step would be exactly the same. But the timing difference and uncertainty from one bit to the next, varies a lot with DACs. And that timing difference is what makes an audible difference.

 

[pkane]

Yes, a single byte step would be exactly the same. But the timing difference and uncertainty from one bit to the next, varied a lot with DACs. And that timing difference is what makes an audible difference.

And why isn’t this timing error measurable?

 

[100rounddrum]

Point 1. These are both DAC/amp combos- not purely DACs
Point 2- you can post this same anecdote as many times as you like (2 so far) , I dont think you will get a response that you like.
Point 3- (You will really hate this one)- did you do double blind level matched testing to remove the chance your ears/ brain might be leading you up the garden path?

Okay, they're DAC/amp combo's. But isn't the rule that they all sound the same regardless if they're transparent enough?

Then why would there be a smoother treble with the cheaper unit, if I thought it would produce a harsher sound? So expectation-bias is clearly out here.

 

[100rounddrum]

And why isn’t this timing error measurable?

I haven't seen measurments of it.

 

[Jimbob54]

Okay, they're DAC/amp combo's. But isn't the rule that they all sound the same regardless if they're transparent enough?

Then why would there be a smoother treble with the cheaper unit, if I thought it would produce a harsher sound? So expectation-bias is clearly out here.

Just read back what you have written and tell me where the glaring hole in your logic is.

EDIT - holes , plural.

 

[pkane]

I haven't seen measurments of it.

Google the term jitter. You can find jitter measurements in nearly every DAC review here, on ASR.

 

[100rounddrum]

Just read back what you have written and tell me where the glaring hole in your logic is.

EDIT - holes , plural.

The only thing I can think of why the cheaper unit produced a smoother treble and more correct timbre (more natural drums and guitars, yes I have heard drums and guitars in real life so I take that as a reference), was because due to better timing certainty.

Everything else was superior on the Microstreamer, graphs wise.

 

[Jimbob54]

The only thing I can think of why the cheaper unit produced a smoother treble and more correct timbre (more natural drums and guitars, yes I have heard drums and guitars in real life so I take that as a reference), was because due to better timing certainty.

Everything else was superior on the Microstreamer, graphs wise.

I think this is one you need to walk back a few steps.

There arent that many options but if you have read either of the threads you posted this in, there are some big clues for you.

 

[100rounddrum]

I think this is one you need to walk back a few steps.

There arent that many options but if you have read either of the threads you posted this in, there are some big clues for you.

The only one that answers it is jitter performance.

But here's the thing: the consensus on this site, is that jitter aka timing differences are inaudible. Yet why was there a clear difference to me in listening, without expectation bias in the first place?

 

[Jimbob54]

I think this is one you need to walk back a few steps.

There arent that many options but if you have read either of the threads you posted this in, there are some big clues for you.

The only thing I can think of why the cheaper unit produced a smoother treble and more correct timbre (more natural drums and guitars, yes I have heard drums and guitars in real life so I take that as a reference), was because due to better timing certainty.

Everything else was superior on the Microstreamer, graphs wise.

OK- a hint . You said "But isn't the rule that they all sound the same regardless if they're transparent enough"

Think about that, and think about how you chose to test the 2 devices.

You're left with only a few possibilities. One or both devices isnt transparent, or , if they are , you didnt test them properly.

 

[Jimbob54]

The only one that answers it is jitter performance.

But here's the thing: the consensus on this site, is that jitter aka timing differences are inaudible. Yet why was there a clear difference to me in listening, without expectation bias in the first place?

I think you're possibly more concerned with jitter/ timing than you should be and less concerned with your logic and reasoning than you need to be.

 

[100rounddrum]

Well, their SINAD is above 85, so is THD below the audible treshhold...

OK- a hint . You said "But isn't the rule that they all sound the same regardless if they're transparent enough"

Think about that, and think about how you chose to test the 2 devices.

You're left with only a few possibilities. One or both devices isnt transparent, or , if they are , you didnt test them properly.

I didn't test them, I looked at the graphs on this site...

Both amp/DACS have a SINAD above 85, and both have a THD below audibility. So yes, they're audibly transparent in both cases.

They only differ in jitter performance.

 

[Jimbob54]

Well, their SINAD is above 85, so is THD belowe the audible treshhold...
I didn't test them, I looked at the graphs on this site...

Both amp/DACS have a SINAD above 85, and both have a THD below audibility. So yes, they're audibly transparent in both cases.

They only differ in jitter performance.

You did test them. You compared one with the other. You concluded one had smoother treble and better timbre than the other. I think most here would tell you your test was flawed , not level matched or double blind so your conclusion unreliable.

 

[pkane]

The only one that answers it is jitter performance.

But here's the thing: the consensus on this site, is that jitter aka timing differences are inaudible. Yet why was there a clear difference to me in listening, without expectation bias in the first place?

What do you mean when you say "without expectation bias"? Did you do a double-blind test? If not, there's no way you can possibly know if you had some sort of bias based on the appearance of the DAC, its features, the company that made it, what you listened to just prior, or what you had for breakfast that day.

 

[wineandmusic]

Too many clowns, not enough wisdom....just closed minded groupies that think they have all the answers. Pathetic.
To think they can put what God has created in a "bottle".

 

[BDWoody]

Abrasive know-it-alls isnt my experience . Anyone willing to adopt the right mindset is treated well from what I have seen. Persisting with illogical or unsubstantiated claims might get a few snarky comments though.

I wised up after the first couple of "Uh-huhs". Maybe.

Uh huh...

 

[Jimbob54]

Uh huh...

*side eye emoji*

 

[100rounddrum]

You did test them. You compared one with the other. You concluded one had smoother treble and better timbre than the other. I think most here would tell you your test was flawed , not level matched or double blind so your conclusion unreliable.

Yes, I did test them, not measure them. I just looked at the measurments on this site.

I expected the one that was smoother and that had better timbre, to be harsher in the treble and worse in timbre. That's what I was expecting.

Yet I got the exact opposite when I tested them. So obviously, as logic would tell, I didn't have any positive expectation for the cheaper DAC/amp.

So we can totally leave expectation-bias out of here.

 

[Jimbob54]

Too many clowns, not enough wisdom....just closed minded groupies that think they have all the answers. Pathetic.
To think they can put what God has created in a "bottle".

Mate- you'd have spent $000 on a metal box if a penguin had told you to. Just hold onto that thought.

 

[BDWoody]

Too many clowns, not enough wisdom....just closed minded groupies that think they have all the answers. Pathetic.
To think they can put what God has created in a "bottle".

Thanks for proving me wrong.
At least that answers that question...