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Classics, please

ejr

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I think I now understand why so many reviews for audio gear -- DACs in particular -- differ from what I experience in practice.

I am not talking about measuring specs, but subjective opinions on how a device makes a system sound. A number of on-line reviewers have posted the discs they test with and many are using the same sort of music, namely pieces for small groups of instruments and perhaps solo vocalists. (Jazz combos, singer/songwriter stuff, and some types of pop). It seems to me that it's hard for this kind of material to sound bad on any system. The instruments can be widely separated and spread out. If you mic close the the singer or instrument, you can get lots of subtle and interesting details that would be lost if there were more performers or recorded from further away.

What I usually want to know is what device sounds like when it is playing an opera or symphony orchestra -- i.e. the type of piece where all the instruments are usually meant to blend together and you want to hear the ambiance of the hall or theater. I think any equipment capable of doing justice to that type of material should be able to handle just about anything. But I could be wrong about this. When comparing the output of the DAC in my entry-level Denon CD player to the one built into my Emotiva preamp, I found that one handled the former sound source well and the other the latter. (I don't remember which was which. I bypassed the problem by connecting the optical output of the CD player to my Loxjie D30, which sounded better than either of them, regardless of what I was playing).

I find that both the Loxjie D30 and D40 (not the D40 Pro) sound better than the alternatives currently available to me, but both are lacking due to a noticable ringing that can sometimes be heard in the extreme higher frequencies. Also some occassional muddiness in the midrange. (Specifically, they seem to be lowering the volume of some ranges to artifically creat depth, so that they sound further away from the listener. It doesn't always work, though. For example, when listening to the score from a Broadway musical, the brass comes in to give some additional power and weight to a number, but it disappoints because it sounds softer than the piano or woodwinds).
 
Hi, sorry if I've missed something but are you asking a question or just commenting (which is fine)?

In case you are wondering about how to improve your sound - HF ringing, muddiness in midrange - then you probably already know that subjective opinions and reviews are not really helpful. The first things you should be looking at are your speakers, and your speakers in your room.

It would help if you gave a bit more detail about your entire system, how far from the speakers you sit and how loud you like to listen. Any other details are helpful, and interesting too.

Was there something specific that you wanted to know?
 
It seems to me that it's hard for this kind of material to sound bad on any system.
There is definitely something to your hunch:
Note how jazz trio - common demo material at audio shows and the like as well - ranks dead last. By contrast, things like metal tend to be pretty well-suited.

I would be very careful when subjectively evaluating DACs. The things generally are so good that even minor level differences are potentially sufficient to fool you into detecting differences in sound - these promptly tend to evaporate into thin air once levels are matched thoroughly (to within <0.3 dB, ideally 0.1 dB). You'll want to use a multimeter for that. Looks can be a factor as well, so this is best done blind, too.

I've found that a lot of things sound just fine these days. There's a few pitfalls like ESS DACs not liking intersample-overs if their DPLL (ASRC) is on, but that's avoided easily enough by reducing levels if need be. Functional audio can be hit and miss though. The last case of something just sounding off to my ears was an IDT 92HD93 sound chip in my Dell Latitude E6330, now over a decade old by itself... something just wasn't right about the highs. The big clue was that running it at 96 or even better 192 kHz brought things back to normal. Dynamic range and distortion all measured fine, and ultimately the only thing I could blame it on was about ±0.05 dB of periodic passband ripple with a 2-3 kHz period... probably associated pre-echo. By 192 kHz, the passband of upsampled 44.1 looked basically perfect. Typical Realteks since about 2009 don't generally have this issue and measure dead flat at least on the DAC side, and a few on the ADC side as well.
 
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Yes, it was just an observation. And, possibly, a subconscious desire to encourage testers to consider using a wider variety of source material (especially denser classical selections).

I don't think the problem is with my speakers. I have the Genelecs that I used to use for video editing and music production on both my systems. Vynl sounds just fine on my audio setup. However, I haven't been able to get up to 192 kHz on the better speakers (which I use with my TV) and I'm not sure why. I predominantely use a Roku Ultra as a source there, but I also have a Sony 4k blu-ray, which plays audio sources better than my CD player. I tried playing with the DPLLs on both Loxjie DACs, but got some weird distortions, so I set them back to the defaults (which got rid of it).
 
I bypassed the problem by connecting the optical output of the CD player to my Loxjie D30
optical output for DACs is usually limited to 96/24, Some might play 192/24, some might have occasional drop-outs at 192, some may not work at all.

they seem to be lowering the volume of some ranges to artifically creat depth, so that they sound further away from the listener.
DACs cannot do this.


Also at 96kHz there is no pre-ringing in the audible band unless one uses upsampled 44.1kHz.
That pre-(and post)ringing only occurs with frequencies close to 20kHz in audio recordings.
It just looks 'bad' when a DAC is tested with Dirac pulses (which cannot exist in recordings and are artificial test signals).

Agreed on the music selection issues when doing listening tests.
 
I just confirmed that Amazon Music Unlimted (or whatever it is now called) is playing everything I select at "192" according to the Loxjie D30. I have my iPad mini wired to the D30 via USB. The signal seemed to be distoring across part of the upper midrange when I reduced the DPLL value to zero. When I returned it to the default (setting the value to 5) that particular issue disappeared. I had a similar distortion issue on the D40, though not as severly, and it also went away when I returned to the default setting. I have not been able to get the D40 play anything higher than "480", whether the signal originates from my Roku Ultra, my Sony 900e Smart TV or 4k blu-ray player.

But pre-ringing is what I think I am hearing on both setups. It's not on every selection, but it happens often enough that I notice it. I have tried all the filters and sound colors and found what I believe is the combination that minimizes the problem for most selections, but it doesn't work for all of them.
 
Okay, then it's something else, which isn't present when I am listening to records. It's like turning up the extreme high band or bands on an equalizer and it does have a ringing quality to it. Changing the filter or Sound Color can make it sound better or worse.
 
I think I now understand why so many reviews for audio gear -- DACs in particular -- differ from what I experience in practice.
The BIG PROBLEM is what's implied in my "signature" below. ;) It gets pretty-darn boring when everything sounds alike in a proper scientific blind listening test. The same thing likely applies to your "experience".

The second problem is all of the meaningless flowery language. At least you mentioned ringing which is a potentially real phenomenon and potentially audible.

What is a blind ABX test?

Audiophoolery
 
Okay, then it's something else, which isn't present when I am listening to records. It's like turning up the extreme high band or bands on an equalizer and it does have a ringing quality to it. Changing the filter or Sound Color can make it sound better or worse.
It's clearly bothering you. Have you tried taking measurements and posting the REW (or similar) results for discussion?
 
Okay, then it's something else, which isn't present when I am listening to records. It's like turning up the extreme high band or bands on an equalizer and it does have a ringing quality to it. Changing the filter or Sound Color can make it sound better or worse.
Isn’t that the issue right there, comparing to a flawed yet familiar medium.
Keith
 
Flawed in different ways, but lacking the issue with digital sources going through the DACs.
 
It's clearly bothering you. Have you tried taking measurements and posting the REW (or similar) results for discussion?
That's beyond my resources and expertise.
 
That's beyond my resources and expertise.
A UMIK-1 or -2 is pretty reasonable but if we are just looking for differences, any reasonable microphone should work.

Expertise is what the membership is here for. I was like you, knowing what I hear but wanting to know why/if it was true. It’s not that hard. Just need a free hour to get started.
 
Flawed in different ways, but lacking the issue with digital sources going through the DACs.
They sort of have to go through a dac…
Keith
 
Okay, I think I can clarify where the problem is for me (and why I sometimes feel like we are comparing apples to oranges):

I have two main audio setups. The first, in my bedroom, is built around my Sony smart TV and my old Genelec studio monitors and subwoofer, which I connect to my Loxjie D40 through its balanced inputs. The signal sources are a Sony smart TV and 4k Blu ray player, a Roku Ultra, and a desktop PC. If I listen to music, primarily coming from Amazon Music Unlimited, the sound is pretty good, though the quality differs depending on whether it originates from my PC, Roku, or DVD player. The DVD player is best. If I use even relatively cheap headphones (like my Sony MDR-7506 or, even better, my Audio-technica M40X, I get better separation between instruments) when compared to my Genelecs (though not as much impact from the bass without the benefit of the subwoofer). Most importantly -- for the purpose of this thread, anyway -- is that I don't hear what has been described as the "digital glare" characteristics of DACs with an ESS chip, and what I have called too much emphasis in the higher frequencies and a dampening of the volume in some of the middle frequencies. On the other hand, when I am watching video, the glare is certainly there, and is especially noticable on dialog.

The second setup is in my dining room, a single-ended system built around an Emotiva PT-100 preamp connected to Genelec's first home theater speakers (sonically equivalent to the studio monitors, according to the manufacturer). But there is no subwoofer here. There just isn't room. The signal sources are my turntable, CD player, and the old iPad mini that I use as a streamer. The ipad and the CD player are connected to a Loxjie D30. Obviously, there is no digital glare when listening to records. But I hear it when I stream music or play a CD. I haven't tried headphones on this system, because it isn't feasible in practice. (I don't want cables dragging across the dining table).

I realize there are a lot of differences between the two setups, and that we are again comparing apples to oranges, but I am not so much looking for an explanation as for suggestions to improve both situations. I briefly tried replacing the Roku Ultra with an Apple TV. I didn't see the improvement that I had hoped for with the picture quality on the TV, but it did noticably improve the sound. Unfortuntately, I hated the thing and it became completely unusable after a firmware update caused its Bluetooth remote to interfere with the Bluetooth reception on the TV, the D40 (and even on the iPad in my dining room and the TV in the adjoining living room) so I had to get rid of it. Still, it suggests to me that improvement to the sound quality is possible in both arenas (i.e. better dialog on films and better audio on CDs and streaming music). So, I have been toying with the idea of replacing one or both Loxjies with units based around another DAC chip. (I'll probaly start by trying a new DAC on my bedroom setup and moving the D40 to the living room and see if that improves things and then go from there.)
 
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