Can we imitate loudness dial?

[mhardy6647]

This was the way Yamaha's variable loudness worked, FWIW. Essentially a midrange cut control.


From the CR-2020 manual, ca. 1977.


Photo of a Yamaha R-1000 (ca. 1981, give or take) showing the volume & loudness pots.

Variable loudness of this kind was fairly common on integrated amplifiers in the 1950s and 1960s, e.g., EICO, Sherwood, and others that don't immediately come to mind.

The idea is to set the volume control to the loudest listening level that the end-user would ever require with the loudness control set to flat. Thereafter, the actual listening level should be set by changing the loudness control only, without changing the volume control.

 

[alaios]

So I tried with my wiim. Do I ever get close to the loudness curves above? Anything that I need to change?

 

[ZolaIII]

So I tried with my wiim. Do I ever get close to the loudness curves above? Anything that I need to change?
View attachment 345558

To what? Use GEQ and save PEQ's for peeks if you can combine them together.
Hire this should help you regarding equal loudness (ISO 226 2003).

Setting are to SPL normalised to 1 KHz.

 

[restorer-john]

Use your bass and treble controls at low volumes to add sufficient boost so the resultant sound is warm and balanced to your ears. Not rocket science- that's what traditional loudness controls/contours did.

Traditional loudness controls were pretty extreme in their boost at low levels, 10-12dB is not unheard of, but the difference was, the manufacturers used 50% loudness tap potentiometers so the loudness 'effect' tailored off as you reached half rotation and then diminished. As long as you are sensible with boost, you will pretty much duplicate a 'loudness' control with bass/treble.

 

[ZolaIII]

Use you bass and treble controls at low volumes to add sufficient boost so the resultant sound is warm and abalanced to your ears. Not rocket science- that's what traditional loudness controls/contours did.

Traditional loudness controls were pretty extreme in their boost at low levels, 12dB is not unheard of, but the difference was, the manufacturers used 50% loudness tap potentiometers so the loudness 'effect' tailored off as you reached half rotation and then diminished. As long as you are sensible with boost, you will pretty much duplicate a 'loudness' control with bass/treble.

I think what you just wrote about members struck you back. I don't think neither het has tone controls and it whose discussed hire earlier how that really depends on how they are done (where the bust is and where it starts).

 

[restorer-john]

I think what you just wrote about members struck you back. I don't think neither of has tone controls and it whose discussed hire earlier how that really depends on how they are done (where the bust is and where it starts).

Your post doesn't make any sense.

What the OP wrote:

but If I have treble and bass dials cant I immitate loundness control? Is not loudness control boosting bass and treble at low volumes? If yes what can be starting dial point?

 

[restorer-john]

I think what you just wrote about members struck you back. I don't think neither of has tone controls and it whose discussed hire earlier how that really depends on how they are done (where the bust is and where it starts).

This was the way Yamaha's variable loudness worked, FWIW. Essentially a midrange cut control.


From the CR-2020 manual, ca. 1977.


Photo of a Yamaha R-1000 (ca. 1981, give or take) showing the volume & loudness pots.

Variable loudness of this kind was fairly common on integrated amplifiers in the 1950s and 1960s, e.g., EICO, Sherwood, and others that don't immediately come to mind.

The idea is to set the volume control to the loudest listening level that the end-user would ever require with the loudness control set to flat. Thereafter, the actual listening level should be set by changing the loudness control only, without changing the volume control.

The early Yamaha variable loudness controls were excellent, although nobody really liked them as they made the amplifier sound "less powerful" on the sales floor.

The current crop of Yamaha variable loudness controls are hit and miss in their action. The A-Sxxx series are not good in my testing.

 

[Prana Ferox]

As others allude to above, a proper 'loudness' control isn't just a bass and treble shelf boost (or midrange cut, which has the same effect), it also varies based on output volume. The knob changes the magnitude of the effect at low volume but it's still supposed to be gone at higher volume. It is, essentially, an inverse Fletcher-Munson curve.

So with bass and treble knobs or an equalizer, you'd only really be able to dial it for a given volume level. Which works fine for some people, and others may like the boost at higher volume regardless.

 

[ZolaIII]

Your post doesn't make any sense.

What the OP wrote:

which amp would be "better"

hey I am looking to buy a amp for my elac solano bs283, after searching for local options (new, I don't like buying something electronic without a warranty) and came up with 3 main options: the yba heritage a200 for 1800 usd (has a pretty nice dac in it so I won't need to upgrade for some time)...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The A-S700 tho I would rather call it last from old then new.

 

[restorer-john]

which amp would be "better"

hey I am looking to buy a amp for my elac solano bs283, after searching for local options (new, I don't like buying something electronic without a warranty) and came up with 3 main options: the yba heritage a200 for 1800 usd (has a pretty nice dac in it so I won't need to upgrade for some time)...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The A-S700 tho I would rather call it last from old then new.
View attachment 345586View attachment 345587

All that tells you is Yamaha's loudness control in the A-Sxxx series is rubbish and that those idiots at Australian HiFi couldn't test a variable loudness control properly if their lives depended on it.

 

[ZolaIII]

@restorer-john they tested only full - 30, first pic are tone controls and I don't see the difference. Even ISO 226 2003 is now relatively old but still lot better and put into perspective to demonstrate how it's used.

 

[alaios]

So

To what? Use GEQ and save PEQ's for peeks if you can combine them together.
Hire this should help you regarding equal loudness (ISO 226 2003).
View attachment 345561
Setting are to SPL normalised to 1 KHz.

So I am trying to imitate the loundness curve from yamaha shared above. If I understood it correctly loundness control is just reducing mid-ranged to make treble and bass to be more audible at low volumes.
Also interesting wiim has precooked loudness setting that is kind of looking close to yamaha but seem to be having some exceptions, boosting some frequencies.
I will see first if Wiim has something close to your above already built in and I will share it here.

Last question why your curve does not look close to yamaha's curve on loudness is it your better for listening at low volumes and yamaha is limited from the typical filters built in the integrated app?

 

[alaios]

Use your bass and treble controls at low volumes to add sufficient boost so the resultant sound is warm and balanced to your ears. Not rocket science- that's what traditional loudness controls/contours did.

Traditional loudness controls were pretty extreme in their boost at low levels, 10-12dB is not unheard of, but the difference was, the manufacturers used 50% loudness tap potentiometers so the loudness 'effect' tailored off as you reached half rotation and then diminished. As long as you are sensible with boost, you will pretty much duplicate a 'loudness' control with bass/treble.

I guess the approach from yamaha is different right? Instead of boosting your two "extremes" bass and treble they are just removing (boosting less) the mid range

 

[alaios]

As others allude to above, a proper 'loudness' control isn't just a bass and treble shelf boost (or midrange cut, which has the same effect), it also varies based on output volume. The knob changes the magnitude of the effect at low volume but it's still supposed to be gone at higher volume. It is, essentially, an inverse Fletcher-Munson curve.

So with bass and treble knobs or an equalizer, you'd only really be able to dial it for a given volume level. Which works fine for some people, and others may like the boost at higher volume regardless.

interesting, so this is what people call an "equalizer"? Have you heard the volume knob at a yamaha receiver like the

Yamaha R-N800A.​

https://www.kosmasaudiovideo.gr/Hxos-HiFi-Network-Receivers-Yamaha-R-N800A-black
Any impressions on that model? I guess in a system with minidsp one can have a proper equalizer built in if the minidsp comes after the preamp or not?
Regards,
Alex

 

[ZolaIII]

@alaios it's boosting the low bass, on very low loudness level it's also busting highs but far less. It's not my nor is graph mine. That's equal loudness implementation to ISO 226 2003 as found in JRiver. It works fine and sounds very good to let's say - 20 dB and still good under that but speakers simply don't follow dynamic under that.
What you need to understand is that equal loudness normalisation works to a received sound pressure level and correction is how far from 86~88 dB it is. Lower it is more correction it needs it's not constant. Yamahas knob is 10 steps each -3 dB and you adjust it to averaged SPL you are getting at listening point. Yamahas implementation is very, very old.
Read & keep reading:

Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And try to enjoy it.

 

[alaios]

so in summary. Yamaha's feature even in its most recent models has this very old implementation that makes it most probably a not good feature.
if you want to do it today properly you need more of equalization stage that takes into account the volume levels. I would guess that minidsp device will be probably offeriing this

 

[flowolf]

I use a Volumio-powered Raspberry Pi as a streamer, and the loudness feature works really well. It is based on ISO 226:2003 and has an adjustable threshold for when it should start (in % of max. volume).

I recommend any kind of loudness compensation feature to anyone who listens at low to medium levels. The difference is significant!

 

[alaios]

But is the streamer that has to do that? I guess there is some filtering needed that does the boosting or attenuation of specific frequencies

 

[flowolf]

Yes, the Raspberry has to do this. It is part of the Fusion-DSP Plugin, a comprehensive frontend for Camilla DSP.
It also works with inputs (USB e.g.) , but you need a Premium account for that.

 

[alaios]

ah nice. So I guess minidsp can do similar things then.