DAC feature trade off with active speakers

[scm77]

Looking to upgrade from AppleTV->TV->Fostex HP8A->Yamaha HS7 looking for more depth of bass and more control over FR in general and at low levels, and to add Airplay2 via WiimPro or Node Nano or similar so music can be played without the TV being on. Situated in a 6.6mx4m living room. Remote for volume at least is essential.

Have Genelec 8020 in my office and considering Genelec 8040+1 or 2 BK Elec XLS200's or Genelec 8050's alone (although they are a fair bit bigger) for the living room.

Ideal feature set for the DAC/pre will be PEQ, loudness control and bass/treble control with 2 digital inputs (1 optical/coax or 2 optical). If using 1 or 2 subs would need to be able to control xover and high pass the mains and low pass the subs.

It doesn't seem like there is an ideal solution.

Either

RME ADI-2 DAC FS gives PEQ, loudness, bass/treble and inputs but no sub crossover or sub outputs so would work with the 8050 but not the 8040+subs.

Or

MiniDSP SHD with PEQ, inputs, sub crossover but no loudness/bass/treble so would work with either speaker but lose out on DAC functionality.

Is there a DAC/pre that has all these functions or is there always a trade off with what's on the market now?

 

[kemmler3D]

Looking to upgrade from AppleTV->TV->Fostex HP8A->Yamaha HS7 looking for more depth of bass and more control over FR in general and at low levels, and to add Airplay2 via WiimPro or Node Nano or similar so music can be played without the TV being on. Situated in a 6.6mx4m living room. Remote for volume at least is essential.

Have Genelec 8020 in my office and considering Genelec 8040+1 or 2 BK Elec XLS200's or Genelec 8050's alone (although they are a fair bit bigger) for the living room.

Ideal feature set for the DAC/pre will be PEQ, loudness control and bass/treble control with 2 digital inputs (1 optical/coax or 2 optical). If using 1 or 2 subs would need to be able to control xover and high pass the mains and low pass the subs.

It doesn't seem like there is an ideal solution.

Either

RME ADI-2 DAC FS gives PEQ, loudness, bass/treble and inputs but no sub crossover or sub outputs so would work with the 8050 but not the 8040+subs.

Or

MiniDSP SHD with PEQ, inputs, sub crossover but no loudness/bass/treble so would work with either speaker but lose out on DAC functionality.

Is there a DAC/pre that has all these functions or is there always a trade off with what's on the market now?

I think the MiniDSP does what you want but I guess no loudness control. I don't know of a simpler DAC that does what you want, but I think you can get the same 4 channel functionality from cheaper MiniDSP units, you could add a WiiM to that setup for less money than the SHD costs.

For whatever reason PEQ is becoming more popular but discrete filters for sub out, or loudness / tone controls are not.

 

[JustJones]

MiniDSP SHD with PEQ, inputs, sub crossover but no loudness/bass/treble so would work with either speaker but lose out on DAC functionality.

The SHD has a DAC so I'm not sure what you mean by lose out on DAC functionality? You can create different presets but yes, there isn't loudness function.

 

[scm77]

The SHD has a DAC so I'm not sure what you mean by lose out on DAC functionality? You can create different presets but yes, there isn't loudness function.

By DAC functionality, I meant the loudness and tone controls built into the DAC rather than the basic DAC feature itself - apologies for the confusion.

You are right the SHD presets could simulate different FR curves to do no, low, mid, high loudness which is an interesting idea - not perfect but a good approximation - thanks.

 

[markstein]

I am using the RME ADI- Pro Fs R as headphone amp, for input selection and volume control plus loudness, digitally connected to a Fireface which is used as multichannel DAC including x-over between mains and subs plus RoomEQ PEQ.
Not the cheapest and easiest to use solution, but it works very well.

The Fireface's mic inputs are used to connect my turntable, so I sold my phono preamp.

Nice powerful combo!

 

[scm77]

I am using the RME ADI- Pro Fs R as headphone amp, for input selection and volume control plus loudness, digitally connected to a Fireface which is used as multichannel DAC including x-over between mains and subs plus RoomEQ PEQ.
Not the cheapest and easiest to use solution, but it works very well.

The Fireface's mic inputs are used to connect my turntable, so I sold my phono preamp.

Nice powerful combo!

Looks powerful but a bit beyond what I was looking to put together in terms of complexity and don't need any ADC. Pretty pricey as the pro RME stuff tends to be as well. An interesting upper end option though.

 

[markstein]

Alternatively I would propose you a MiniDSP Flex as lower cost solution. No headphone amp, no loudness. But you could save different presets for background music level and "normal" listening level.

 

[unpluggged]

RME ADI-2 DAC FS gives PEQ, loudness, bass/treble and inputs but no sub crossover or sub outputs so would work with the 8050 but not the 8040+subs.

Are you sure you need the SPL of 8050 or 8040? If your listening distance is moderate, I'd suggest to look at the Neumann KH 120 II combined with a KH 750 DSP, preferably calibrated with MA 1 kit, and fed by ADI-2 DAC. This way you will get a well-integrated system with room EQ plus all the DSP features of the ADI-2 DAC.

 

[scm77]

Are you sure you need the SPL of 8050 or 8040? If your listening distance is moderate, I'd suggest to look at the Neumann KH 120 II combined with a KH 750 DSP, preferably calibrated with MA 1 kit, and fed by ADI-2 DAC. This way you will get a well-integrated system with room EQ plus all te DSP features of the ADI-2 DAC.

It isn't really the SPL (typically listen at 65-70db with peaks of 85-90) - it is the bass depth with the 8050 although I guess 8030+subs would work well too as an alternative to 8040s. For my sins I actually like the look of genelecs and much prefer them (by a substantial margin) to the look of the neumanns unfortunately although otherwise that would a reasonable option.

I guess your suggestion would be similar to 8330 SAMs and a SAM sub (although they are incredibly industrial looking at best - being very very generous).

EDIT: the kh120 in white isn't quite so bad so maybe an option. Thanks

 

[unpluggged]

It isn't really the SPL (typically listen at 65-70db with peaks of 85-90) - it is the bass depth with the 8050 although I guess 8030+subs would work well too as an alternative to 8040s. For my sins I actually like the look of genelecs and much prefer them (by a substantial margin) to the look of the neumanns unfortunately although otherwise that would a reasonable option.

Bass depth is not of a concern if you are using a subwoofer. And in my room (a bit smaller than yours, though), my 7-inch HEDD Type 07 MK2 do not lack bass, there's a lot of room gain in the 30-40 Hz region, so I EQ it down by several dB, so KH 150 could be an option if you consider skipping the sub.

For Genelecs, I'd suggest to go for GLM-supported speakers (the 8330, for instance) paired with a corresponding sub and the GLM kit. But their subs (like the 7350) are ugly as hell, so it's a tie between them and the Neumanns BTW, Neumanns are also available in white, and they look great in that color, if that's part of your concern (not the sub, sadly). I still think that the new Neumanns (the KH 150 and the KH 120 II) deliver better value compared to their Genelec counterparts (the 8330 and the 8340).

 

[TimW]

When I had a setup like this, I used an RME ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition as a digital preamp going to a miniDSP C-DSP 8x12 for crossovers and PEQ. The loudness, bass and treble, and balance features of the RME were awesome to have accessible on the remote. You could use a different miniDSP unit such as the Flex in such a setup. It is a somewhat complicated and expensive setup and I no longer have it. Getting an RME and one of the Genelec or Neumann options with their own room correction and crossovers built in sounds like a much nicer option to me.

 

[scm77]

Bass depth is not of a concern if you are using a subwoofer. And in my room (a bit smaller than yours, though), my 7-inch HEDD Type 07 MK2 do not lack bass, there's a lot of room gain in the 30-40 Hz region, so I EQ it down by several dB, so KH 150 could be an option if you consider skipping the sub.

For Genelecs, I'd suggest to go for GLM-supported speakers (the 8330, for instance) paired with a corresponding sub and the GLM kit. But their subs (like the 7350) are ugly as hell, so it's a tie between them and the Neumanns BTW, Neumanns are also available in white, and they look great in that color, if that's part of your concern (not the sub, sadly). I still think that the new Neumanns (the KH 150 and the KH 120 II) deliver better value compared to their Genelec counterparts (the 8330 and the 8340).

Agreed on the 8x30/8x40+subs about bass. The alternative is an 8050 without subs rather than 8050+subs though. 100% agree on genelec subs being very ugly.

Given that the ideal DAC with all features doesn't exist I will likely end up with 8050 + RME ADI-2 and have less boxes and wires (8050+RME is approx same cost as KH120ii+KH750DSP+RME so that is a wash and prefer the genelec looks).

If I can PEQ in the RME I wouldn't really need 83x0 series/GLM or DSP in the speakers if I understand it correctly and then just have 1 location to control volume, tone, souce with a single remote?

This is turning out to be even more complex than originally though lol - appreciate everyones thoughts so far.

 

[voodooless]

There are basically no devices with the loudness compensation features of the ADI that offer more than 2 channels. For a MiniDSP, the next best thing would be to use the presets to have multiple levels of compensation for various listening levels.

 

[markstein]

Agreed on the 8x30/8x40+subs about bass. The alternative is an 8050 without subs rather than 8050+subs though. 100% agree on genelec subs being very ugly.

Given that the ideal DAC with all features doesn't exist I will likely end up with 8050 + RME ADI-2 and have less boxes and wires (8050+RME is approx same cost as KH120ii+KH750DSP+RME so that is a wash and prefer the genelec looks).

If I can PEQ in the RME I wouldn't really need 83x0 series/GLM or DSP in the speakers if I understand it correctly and then just have 1 location to control volume, tone, souce with a single remote?

This is turning out to be even more complex than originally though lol - appreciate everyones thoughts so far.

Just keep in mind that the RME ADI-2 PEQ is somewhat limited for extremely equalizing bass. Out of the 5 (+2) PEQs, only 3 (+1) are below 200Hz and with max. Q = 9.9 if I remember correctly. The rest ist above 200Hz with max Q=5.

Today I only would buy a DSP enabled speaker (Neumann with MA1 or Genelec with GLM) and use the RME ADI-2 EQ for headphones and for general adjustment "to taste", not primarily for room correction.