Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[JP]

Maybe a good use of AI?

I think it could've been done years ago, and maybe has been for archival. Would just need to scan a good portion of the groove wall and use something analogous to a de-clicking algorithm to determine what is the groove vs. what is foreign. Likely wouldn't be real time.

ELP player is actually analog.

 

[MattHooper]

Wow, the ELP turntable wouldn't read clear or colored vinyl! That would make it a non-starter in todays vinyl market.

And yet they are still for sale apparently from the manufacturer.

ELP Laser Turntable – Play Vinyl with No Contact and No Wear

ELP Laser Turntable ELP Laser Turntable Official English Site Learn about the original Laser Turntable for Vinyl Records. No Contact, No Wear.

www.elpj.com

 

[egellings]

Reading record groves seems like a problem best suited to a laser...

- Rich

Finial Labs, was it called?

 

[Angsty]

I'd say it's the Technics SP-10RE-S turntable, considering that this turntable seems to have the best wow & flutter and rumble measurements:

View attachment 364541

Seems to me that all that extra weight in the Wilson Benesch turntable would result in extra inertia and stored energy. It's an old-school way to smooth out speed variations, when computer-based control is possible with a lighter platter.

The Technics SP-10RE-S turntable goes for something in the neighborhood of $12,000.00 (edit: $20,000.00)

Even the current SL-1000R turntable is only fractionally better in HiFi News measurements than those of the 1200GAE (and 1200G) at around US$4000; it may not be audible. The SME Model 60 measures even slightly better than the SL-1000R, but at three times the price.

 

[Robin L]

Fer fun...

Here's Michael Fremer playing the new....

"Babylon Sisters" UHQR on $370K Wilson-Benesch GMT One Turntable​

Interesting that the turntable operates via a phone app, as Michael demonstrates. I think that's kind of neat, though part of what I like about playing records on my system is
not having to interact with any computer devices or screens including my phone.

Starts at 9:00.

Questions: what sort of ADC is the turntable's signal going through? What sort of data compression is the You Tube transmission imposing?

I made a quick and dirty comparison of the You Tube of Babylon Sisters to my ALAC file. Got the two to sound about equivalent in volume. But this is nothing like a DBT. My sense is that there's a little more going on with ALAC file, derived from the Steely Dan Definitive Collection, though that might be all in my head. Nonetheless, my sense was that the LP derived sound was more homogenous, a little smoothed out. I'm prejudiced, of course, but it seems to me that this demo fails at demonstrating any superiority of LP playback, no matter the cost.

 

[Robin L]

Even the current SL-1000R turntable is only fractionally better in HiFi News measurements than those of the 1200GAE (and 1200G) at around US$4000; it may not be audible. The SME Model 60 measures even slightly better than the SL-1000R, but at three times the price.

I was very happy with my SME 3009 series III tonearm. SME makes good products.

 

[atmasphere]

I have posted this before - I have a fantasy that I developed when I found out that LaserDisc was actually analog. I am so used to associate optical with digital because of CD/DVD/Bluray/SACD that did not even think that they are not necessarily tied - kind of a surprise.

I KNOW that the time for something like this has passed - but still holding out hope someone might try it, so I keep posting and re-posting the idea - hope it makes sense

Take the LaserDisc, Ditch video so all bandwidth is dedicated to music to use it as an analog music platform. Optical should solve most of the issues associated with records and tape (for consumer music consumption, that is). We would have the HUGE surface so we can keep our beautiful 12 inch covers. No backward compatibility of course (as opposed to the laser cartridges some companies came up with so you could play our old LPs, as someone posted after this [edit] ) but that is fine, there more pros than cons to use optical.

Obviously that time for this... well, to say it has passed it's wrong... it never came! I did after all, back in the 80s, almost immediately ditched vinyl for the CD.
Just an idea, if it is dumb, so be it!

You don't mean the Finial Turntable (laser playback of LPs) do you?

 

[Victor Martell]

You don't mean the Finial Turntable (laser playback of LPs) do you?

When it comes to laser playback of regular LPs, I think so... I also think there was another one, further back; that's what I meant ... when it comes to the "Music only analog LaserDisc" idea that is just my own idiocy!

 

[Brian Hall]

An unholy mixing of technologies!

Actually it's been done hasn't it? I recall that there were still some problematic issues in implementing a laser reader with the record grooves. Can't remember what they were. Someone else here I'm sure knows.

I think it was even better at detecting and playing back every tiny spec of dust, giving more and higher resolution pops and crackles. Which someone should have realized before creating it in the first place.

No one keeps their records in a completely dust free environment.

 

[Count Arthur]

Fer fun...

Here's Michael Fremer playing the new....

"Babylon Sisters" UHQR on $370K Wilson-Benesch GMT One Turntable​

Interesting that the turntable operates via a phone app, as Michael demonstrates. I think that's kind of neat, though part of what I like about playing records on my system is
not having to interact with any computer devices or screens including my phone.

Starts at 9:00.

$370K and it sounds just as good as a CD - Result!

Fun fact, I once visited the Wilson Benesch factory in Sheffield back in the 90s, shortly after they first started.

 

[deweydm]

<snip>

Tape is likely the biggest issue is why, if you are a rabid audiophile or music lover, that you will want to have a good turntable setup. If you really want to hear what the musical performance sounded like, the closest you can get to it will be the original vinyl if the recording was made in the 1950s into the early 80s. This is entirely because if the recording was made on tape (and nearly all of that period was) the tapes have all degraded in one way or another. When polyester backing was introduced in the late 1960s, oxide shedding became a problem unless the tape was stored immaculately. Record labels aren't very good at this (also, masters have a way of going missing) so digital reissues are often less vivacious (less bandwidth, less dynamic range) than the original vinyl, simply on account of a working copy (dub) being used or the master having degraded over time.

If the tape for a release degraded between original LP release and first digital release, the artists and or labels could pretty easily make a nice clean vinyl rip available for download and/or streaming.

I have a vague recollection that someone posted a quote from Dave Grohl somewhere to the effect that the only way to hear Nevermind the way it “should sound“ or some such was to listen to the original LP release, which seems baffling to me. Worse case, make a clean vinyl rip available legally then. I mean what the hell? (I find it hard to believe that they’d have to resort to that with a Nirvana album though. There must still be great existing digital copies that could be remastered to be indistinguishable from whatever he thinks was the best sounding version originally.) I can‘t find the reference, so I could be misremembering though.

I love LPs, but the suggestion that someone might have to resort to LP playback to hear the best version of something seems understandably very irritating to many here who might not care to ever listen to an LP now.

 

[levimax]

I love LPs, but the suggestion that someone might have to resort to LP playback to hear the best version of something seems understandably very irritating to many here who might not care to ever listen to an LP now.

Not sure why it would irritate anyone but there are LP's that have a unique masterings that is different from later digital releases that some may prefer. In addition, even if not preferred, older original LP releases can have a different sound that some find interesting for historical and artistic context.

 

[stringer]

This is one of the most thorough and thoughtful explanations of the vinyl Renaissance that I have encountered thus far.

The triumph of vinyl: Vintage is back as LP sales continue to skyrocket

Vinyl’s unlikely comeback story is linked to a combination of slick marketing, claims of superior sound, its polysensorial character and how it evokes nostalgia to construct and reconstitute memory.

theconversation.com

 

[deweydm]

Not sure why it would irritate anyone but there are LP's that have a unique masterings that is different from later digital releases that some may prefer. In addition, even if not preferred, older original LP releases can have a different sound that some find interesting for historical and artistic context.

I agree, and I probably shouldn’t try and speak for others. Myself, I find it very surprising that forty years after digital playback became widely available with CDs, that I still very often resort to LP playback for my preferred version of an album.

 

[atmasphere]

I love LPs, but the suggestion that someone might have to resort to LP playback to hear the best version of something seems understandably very irritating to many here who might not care to ever listen to an LP now.

I don't see why. Anyone that knows digital probably also knows that analog tapes can degrade over time. If they don't they should. Its one of the main reasons some CD releases of older albums didn't sound as good as the original LP- and this having (because of tape) nothing to do with the LP vs digital 'conversation'.

Note that I'm being careful to use the phrase 'original LP' or 'original pressing' as one of the LP's weaknesses is that later pressings often don't own up to the sound of the original.

 

[Robin L]

I don't see why. Anyone that knows digital probably also knows that analog tapes can degrade over time. If they don't they should. Its one of the main reasons some CD releases of older albums didn't sound as good as the original LP- and this having (because of tape) nothing to do with the LP vs digital 'conversation'.

Note that I'm being careful to use the phrase 'original LP' or 'original pressing' as one of the LP's weaknesses is that later pressings often don't own up to the sound of the original.

I recall that a lot of Columbia's later pressings (like the odyssey series of Classical reissues) had considerably more treble than the Columbia originals. This also applied to pop reissues in the 1970s of recordings from the 1950s and 1960s.

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

I have posted this before - I have a fantasy that I developed when I found out that LaserDisc was actually analog. I am so used to associate optical with digital because of CD/DVD/Bluray/SACD that did not even think that they are not necessarily tied - kind of a surprise.

I KNOW that the time for something like this has passed - but still holding out hope someone might try it, so I keep posting and re-posting the idea - hope it makes sense

Take the LaserDisc, Ditch video so all bandwidth is dedicated to music to use it as an analog music platform. Optical should solve most of the issues associated with records and tape (for consumer music consumption, that is). We would have the HUGE surface so we can keep our beautiful 12 inch covers. No backward compatibility of course (as opposed to the laser cartridges some companies came up with so you could play our old LPs, as someone posted after this [edit] ) but that is fine, there more pros than cons to use optical.

Obviously that time for this... well, to say it has passed it's wrong... it never came! I did after all, back in the 80s, almost immediately ditched vinyl for the CD.
Just an idea, if it is dumb, so be it!

"In 1974, Lou Ottens, director of the audio division of Philips, started a small group to develop an analog optical audio disc with a diameter of 20 cm (7.9 in) and a sound quality superior to that of the vinyl record.[19] However, due to the unsatisfactory performance of the analog format, two Philips research engineers recommended a digital format in March 1974." from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_Digital_Audio#History
At the same time Sony had similar activities, digital from the start. In 1979 they decided to work together.. Just before that: "Sony executive Norio Ohga, later CEO and chairman of Sony, and Heitaro Nakajima were convinced of the format's commercial potential and pushed further development despite widespread skepticism."

Although inferior, lp's can sound very pleasant: that soft blanket of noise, from which all this beautifull sounds arise, it has a certain rest, maybe because of the dynamic and bandwidth restrictions.

 

[Robin L]

Lots of disinformation here:

https://www.classical-music.com/listen/why-isnt-the-vinyl-trend-crossing-over-to-the-classical-music-market?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2nKEw9wU6sanaG5Lyy4hjzOOdmlklgefl36xxg5Kyb_VIQh0FGrDJndsI_aem_Ad93ymRa_EzACDyxYtXQBsrC1KdWmTVGWy9L2g09iuLG4kmaZQj_QQXM-8zNloUl6GaP3XmQNrwDEVu2AR4dz-1L

 

[Robin L]

This WaPo article has a lot of interesting information and great visuals concerning the manufacture of LPs:

https://wapo.st/4cXQ83s

 

[atmasphere]

Although inferior, lp's can sound very pleasant: that soft blanket of noise, from which all this beautifull sounds arise, it has a certain rest, maybe because of the dynamic and bandwidth restrictions.

What 'noise'? Are you conflating phono preamp noise with that of the LP surface? The behavior of the phono section can have a marked change in the perception of noise. I've posted about this issue quite a lot on this thread.

These days the LP often has wider dynamic range, owing to DSP applied to the digital release due to the expectation it will get played in a car. LPs may not have this problem if the producer opted to eliminate or reduce the DSP used in the source file. Definitely counter intuitive. The LP has no HF bandwidth restrictions compared to digital; it is limited in the lows by the mechanical resonance of the playback apparatus which should be 7-12Hz if set up properly.

If one is to be critical of the LP and there are plenty of reasons to do so, its best to be armed with the facts rather than popular myth.