Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[atmasphere]

I think he means, explain it in a way that "Makes sense" to most of us in here. Not saying you did not, but so much has been said, its all lost in the numerous posts.

My thoughts as someone that was very into vinyl for many years, owned numerous tables and still have maybe a couple in storage, it was great for the time, nothing horrible at all, but it simply is mostly nostalgia now for many.

I see 3 camps:


1. Those that seem to almost adore it, despite numerous minor to moderate flaws and limitations, that at times audibly impact the sound, and other times not so much... They ignore the flaws or downplay them, or argue, "But its VINYL or analog!!"

2. Those that are buying into the retro nostalgia or collectable element or those finding a "Fad" type appeal from a mostly vanished medium that came back to a small degree. Younger people and many middle aged or older guys just wanting to "Relive" an era...

3. Those like me that did vinyl forwards and backwards, have no hostility to it, nor any real love, but see it as something that "Was"......just like my Open Reel and 8 Track and Cassette days. It was fun for the time, it invokes nostalgia, but we found a way to literally fix the flaws and limitations of all the above things listed, and I simply do not see the reason for Camp Number one, but can totally understand camp Two.

There's more to it than that of course.
The first is of course that you can actually see the artwork- you don't get wall posters with CDs or streaming.
The second is an LP can gain value over time (often worth hundreds of dollars) as it becomes collectable. This happens to a lessor extent with CDs and not at all with streaming.
A third problem is that the 'digital crowd' often has misconceptions that lead them to believe the LP is worse than it really is. I've covered this before in this thread but here it is again:
* Bandwidth is wider than expected- Usually over 40KHz and even in the inner grooves over 30KHz. That myth about limited bandwidth in the inner grooves was caused by crude stereo cartridges of the 1960s.
* Distortion is much lower that commonly understood as far as the media is concerned. The distortion comes in during playback, which is why setup and equipment quality is so important and also the media's biggest weakness. The cutter head has a 30dB feedback loop wrapped around the cutter amp which already has a feedback loop of its own. Read Bruno Putzeys' writings if you want to find out what happens when you have 30dB running at all frequencies of the audio band! Distortion is much lower than most of those bad science 'studies' showed, most of which are from the 1960s before things were figured out.
* Ticks and pops are generated by a poorly designed phono sections, which is a endemic problem- most solid state phono sections of amps and receivers of the 1970s and 80s have this problem- its not enough to simply have enough gain and the RIAA curve. Most designers ignored the implication of an inductive source driving the preamp through a capacitive cable. When the phono section overloads due to the energy in that resonance (which might be 20dB in the case of MM, 30dB with LOMC), it makes a tick or pop which sounds like its on the LP surface.

Fix that last problem with proper phono section design and you remove the biggest compliant most of the digital crowd has against the LP. So it endures. Its not a renaissance, it just never went away.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I never stopped playing Vinyl…

 

[MattHooper]

Fer fun...

Here's Michael Fremer playing the new....

"Babylon Sisters" UHQR on $370K Wilson-Benesch GMT One Turntable​

Interesting that the turntable operates via a phone app, as Michael demonstrates. I think that's kind of neat, though part of what I like about playing records on my system is
not having to interact with any computer devices or screens including my phone.

Starts at 9:00.

 

[AdrianusG]

There's more to it than that of course.
The first is of course that you can actually see the artwork- you don't get wall posters with CDs or streaming.
The second is an LP can gain value over time (often worth hundreds of dollars) as it becomes collectable. This happens to a lessor extent with CDs and not at all with streaming.
A third problem is that the 'digital crowd' often has misconceptions that lead them to believe the LP is worse than it really is. I've covered this before in this thread but here it is again:
* Bandwidth is wider than expected- Usually over 40KHz and even in the inner grooves over 30KHz. That myth about limited bandwidth in the inner grooves was caused by crude stereo cartridges of the 1960s.
* Distortion is much lower that commonly understood as far as the media is concerned. The distortion comes in during playback, which is why setup and equipment quality is so important and also the media's biggest weakness. The cutter head has a 30dB feedback loop wrapped around the cutter amp which already has a feedback loop of its own. Read Bruno Putzeys' writings if you want to find out what happens when you have 30dB running at all frequencies of the audio band! Distortion is much lower than most of those bad science 'studies' showed, most of which are from the 1960s before things were figured out.
* Ticks and pops are generated by a poorly designed phono sections, which is a endemic problem- most solid state phono sections of amps and receivers of the 1970s and 80s have this problem- its not enough to simply have enough gain and the RIAA curve. Most designers ignored the implication of an inductive source driving the preamp through a capacitive cable. When the phono section overloads due to the energy in that resonance (which might be 20dB in the case of MM, 30dB with LOMC), it makes a tick or pop which sounds like its on the LP surface.

Fix that last problem with proper phono section design and you remove the biggest compliant most of the digital crowd has against the LP. So it endures. Its not a renaissance, it just never went away.

" * Bandwidth is wider than expected- Usually over 40KHz and even in the inner grooves over 30KHz. That myth about limited bandwidth in the inner grooves was caused by crude stereo cartridges of the 1960s"

Theoretically this might be true, (regarding a good cartridge anyways), however >95% of all Vinyl ever produced barely touches 15Kz , if at all, so a bit of a moot point.

Like/love Vinyl for what it is (I still do sometimes) it's tactility, the big artwork, the process of slowing down, and actually listening to an album instead of just tracks,
I'm get it but fidelity-wise it has been surpassed, and has been for quite a while.

The astronomical prices you have to pay for them also don't help much in that regard, CD's, often the same album to be had for 1/3, so..

 

[Angsty]

I never stopped playing Vinyl…

I come from a generation that was initially vinyl only but snatched into CDs in our teens and only later came back to vinyl. Many of the albums from my teens and early Twenties were never released on vinyl until decades later. I still fight the idea that I should repurchase those albums on vinyl when I still own CD original releases in “DDD”.

Nonetheless, I have become a vinyl fan in the past decade, especially for releases prior to 1980.

 

[atmasphere]

" * Bandwidth is wider than expected- Usually over 40KHz and even in the inner grooves over 30KHz. That myth about limited bandwidth in the inner grooves was caused by crude stereo cartridges of the 1960s"

Theoretically this might be true, (regarding a good cartridge anyways), however >95% of all Vinyl ever produced barely touches 15Kz , if at all, so a bit of a moot point.

Like/love Vinyl for what it is (I still do sometimes) it's tactility, the big artwork, the process of slowing down, and actually listening to an album instead of just tracks,
I'm get it but fidelity-wise it has been surpassed, and has been for quite a while.

The astronomical prices you have to pay for them also don't help much in that regard, CD's, often the same album to be had for 1/3, so..

The bandwidth limit of vinyl is mostly microphones and such and nothing to do with the media- just as it is for digital releases. My mastering system was bandwidth limited at 42KHz (Westerex 3D with 1700 electronics; 6dB slope introduced at the output of the cutter amps).

The fidelity thing is really variable and system dependent! If your playback is set up right and is good equipment, the difference isn't audible (meaning you have to look to see if the turntable is running to know if you're playing digital or vinyl). But set up being what it is, many people fall well short of that: noise, ticks and pops (due to poor phono sections for reasons I previously mentioned), poor tracking etc. It is a common mistake though to conflate the media performance with that of an individual's personal anecdotes.

Can't argue with the price! That was and still is a driving force in the studio; a 10" reel of 1" tape is $200 these days. LPs are typically more expensive too!

Tape is likely the biggest issue is why, if you are a rabid audiophile or music lover, that you will want to have a good turntable setup. If you really want to hear what the musical performance sounded like, the closest you can get to it will be the original vinyl if the recording was made in the 1950s into the early 80s. This is entirely because if the recording was made on tape (and nearly all of that period was) the tapes have all degraded in one way or another. When polyester backing was introduced in the late 1960s, oxide shedding became a problem unless the tape was stored immaculately. Record labels aren't very good at this (also, masters have a way of going missing) so digital reissues are often less vivacious (less bandwidth, less dynamic range) than the original vinyl, simply on account of a working copy (dub) being used or the master having degraded over time.

 

[levimax]

Fer fun...

Here's Michael Fremer playing the new....

"Babylon Sisters" UHQR on $370K Wilson-Benesch GMT One Turntable​

Interesting that the turntable operates via a phone app, as Michael demonstrates. I think that's kind of neat, though part of what I like about playing records on my system is
not having to interact with any computer devices or screens including my phone.

Starts at 9:00.

For $370K at least it is remote controlled and automatic. I was really surprised how long it took this thing to get up to speed. The old Technics DD's used in radio stations would spin up to speed in a fraction of one rotation so you could drop the stylus with the TT stopped and then start it up when you want to play. I very much doubt the extra $366K gets you much if any improved sound quality compared to a new (Or old) top of the line Technics. Looks impressive though.

 

[MattHooper]

I very much doubt the extra $366K gets you much if any improved sound quality compared to a new (Or old) top of the line Technics.

Or a $100 DAC

I can see where the construction and implementation of tonearms and cartridges can affect the sound. But when it comes to the heroic measures in the structure of these high mass turntables, some of them constructed on layers and layers of isolation, the benefit seems very dubious. It's like really, how much further down can you actually make the noise floor? It's already limited by the medium anyway." Reminds me of the apparently endlessly depths of "noise" that audiophiles believe can be lowered via cables, power conditioners etc.

I still enjoy seeing various takes on turntables, though. At least the general mechanical issues a turntable must address seem obvious enough even to a layman like me, so seeing how different designers approach the issues is still fun, even when overboard.

 

[RichB]

Or a $100 DAC

I can see where the construction and implementation of tonearms and cartridges can affect the sound. But when it comes to the heroic measures in the structure of these high mass turntables, some of them constructed on layers and layers of isolation, the benefit seems very dubious. It's like really, how much further down can you actually make the noise floor? It's already limited by the medium anyway." Reminds me of the apparently endlessly depths of "noise" that audiophiles believe can be lowered via cables, power conditioners etc.

I still enjoy seeing various takes on turntables, though. At least the general mechanical issues a turntable must address seem obvious enough even to a layman like me, so seeing how different designers approach the issues is still fun, even when overboard.

Reading record groves seems like a problem best suited to a laser...

- Rich

 

[Victor Martell]

Or a $100 DAC

I can see where the construction and implementation of tonearms and cartridges can affect the sound. But when it comes to the heroic measures in the structure of these high mass turntables, some of them constructed on layers and layers of isolation, the benefit seems very dubious. It's like really, how much further down can you actually make the noise floor? It's already limited by the medium anyway." Reminds me of the apparently endlessly depths of "noise" that audiophiles believe can be lowered via cables, power conditioners etc.

I still enjoy seeing various takes on turntables, though. At least the general mechanical issues a turntable must address seem obvious enough even to a layman like me, so seeing how different designers approach the issues is still fun, even when overboard.

Being after all an ASRer, I do believe that the threshold for diminishing returns on a turntable setup is A LOT less than $370K !

 

[MattHooper]

Reading record groves seems like a problem best suited to a laser...

- Rich

An unholy mixing of technologies!

Actually it's been done hasn't it? I recall that there were still some problematic issues in implementing a laser reader with the record grooves. Can't remember what they were. Someone else here I'm sure knows.

 

[JP]

ELP. Big one is that it can’t distinguish debris in the groove from the groove.

 

[Victor Martell]

Reading record groves seems like a problem best suited to a laser...

- Rich

I have posted this before - I have a fantasy that I developed when I found out that LaserDisc was actually analog. I am so used to associate optical with digital because of CD/DVD/Bluray/SACD that did not even think that they are not necessarily tied - kind of a surprise.

I KNOW that the time for something like this has passed - but still holding out hope someone might try it, so I keep posting and re-posting the idea - hope it makes sense

Take the LaserDisc, Ditch video so all bandwidth is dedicated to music to use it as an analog music platform. Optical should solve most of the issues associated with records and tape (for consumer music consumption, that is). We would have the HUGE surface so we can keep our beautiful 12 inch covers. No backward compatibility of course (as opposed to the laser cartridges some companies came up with so you could play our old LPs, as someone posted after this [edit] ) but that is fine, there more pros than cons to use optical.

Obviously that time for this... well, to say it has passed it's wrong... it never came! I did after all, back in the 80s, almost immediately ditched vinyl for the CD.
Just an idea, if it is dumb, so be it!

 

[Robin L]

Being after all an ASRer, I do believe that the threshold for diminishing returns on a turntable set is A LOT less than $370K !

I'd say it's the Technics SP-10RE-S turntable, considering that this turntable seems to have the best wow & flutter and rumble measurements:

Seems to me that all that extra weight in the Wilson Benesch turntable would result in extra inertia and stored energy. It's an old-school way to smooth out speed variations, when computer-based control is possible with a lighter platter.

The Technics SP-10RE-S turntable goes for something in the neighborhood of $12,000.00 (edit: $20,000.00)

 

[Anton D]

An unholy mixing of technologies!

Actually it's been done hasn't it? I recall that there were still some problematic issues in implementing a laser reader with the record grooves. Can't remember what they were. Someone else here I'm sure knows.

The ELP & Finial turntables!

Laser turntable - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Robin L]

An unholy mixing of technologies!

Actually it's been done hasn't it? I recall that there were still some problematic issues in implementing a laser reader with the record grooves. Can't remember what they were. Someone else here I'm sure knows.

One was that replay of surface noise was much worse than with standard turntables.

 

[Victor Martell]

I'd say it's the Technics SP-10RE-S turntable, considering that this turntable seems to have the best wow & flutter and rumble measurements:

View attachment 364541

Seems to me that all that extra weight in the Wilson Benesch turntable would result in extra inertia and stored energy. It's an old-school way to smooth out speed variations, when computer-based control is possible with a lighter platter.

The Technics SP-10RE-S turntable goes for something in the neighborhood of $12,000.00

That is a beautiful machine

 

[Robin L]

That is a beautiful machine

The Wilson Benesch TT looks like it belongs in Las Vegas.

 

[levimax]

ELP. Big one is that it can’t distinguish debris in the groove from the groove.

Maybe a good use of AI?

 

[MattHooper]

ELP. Big one is that it can’t distinguish debris in the groove from the groove.

One was that replay of surface noise was much worse than with standard turntables.

Yes! That's what I was dimly remembering. Thanks.