Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[MattHooper]

I can quite happily "enjoy" music on a crappy radio or through cheap earbuds, whatever. I'm pretty sure that an expensive system is about more than that.

I think that when we let the "more" become a search for some kind of heightened emotional response that a lot of the trouble begins.

I find the question "why are we audiophiles doing this?" to be fascinating.

Listening to music is clearly a focal point around which we organize this interest.

And yet most of us admit we can enjoy music on fairly meager playback systems. After all, even an iphone speaker can transmit the basic musical content of a song. So if we can enjoy music without all this high-end equipment rigamarole, what's the point?

For me, and I would argue for most audiophiles, I think it's something like: I like music AND I like Good Sound itself. If I listen to Ravel's daphnis and chloe
through a clock radio, I can appreciate and enjoy the music. The basics are there, the composition, melody, enough timbral information to make out the orchestra, voices etc. But seeing it live in the concert all elevates the experience. It's not just that it's live, it's that the sound itself is sensuous - the richness and harmonic complexity of a live orchestra is exhilarating.

I seek something like that, and get something like that, from some high end audio systems. By that I don't mean "indistinguishable from live" because I can be talking about listening to purely electronic music on a high end system too. Rather, it's that a good high end systems adds what I don't get from a clock radio or bad car stereo: the sensuousness of good sound quality. Whether it's the way a good system can bring out the recognizable papery snap of a snare drum, the rich resonance and reedy quality of an oboe, or the intricate envelope of some purely electronic music, good sound is sensuous and elevates the experience. That's the X factor that makes it worth sitting down in front of a system to just listen, rather than have it on a smart speaker in the background while cleaning dishes.

If someone is going for as accurate a system as possible, the only reason that makes sense is if they in fact enjoy listening to music more through such a system. Otherwise, why would one subjective themselves to "enjoying music less?" And it's because they, like me and you and everyone else, appreciate not only just "the music" but "sound quality" as well, and it's wonderful when the two merge in a way that transports us.

 

[Sal1950]

If someone is going for as accurate a system as possible, the only reason that makes sense is if they in fact enjoy listening to music more through such a system. Otherwise, why would one subjective themselves to "enjoying music less?"

What ??
Why did most of us start spending the kind of money we do on HiFi ? 99% of the world think were nuts.
I love music and wanted the best sound I could purchase. The pursuit of HiFi has always been working and
spending to better hear what was in the grooves. IE accuracy. Shit I remember back in the day when "serious"
meant you had moved out of receiver into separates, later you weren't considered "serious" if your front end
had tone controls or a balance. Just input switching and volume. I ran a couple of passive preamps in that time LOL
It did have it's place at the time but was very limiting.

Otherwise, why would one subjective themselves to "enjoying music less?"

Because we couldn't afford better, why else.

Am I missing something?

 

[Spkrdctr]

I think after reading this thread, we need Sanyo to come back with those Ultra high quality boom boxes. Cheap? Yes super high quality? Yes. What more could anyone want?

 

[dogberry]

I thought I might enjoy a long read of this thread, but I don't seem to be able to get past the OP saying he can't hear a difference between YouTube and a CD. Is this just a 91 page troll?

 

[fpitas]

I thought I might enjoy a long read of this thread, but I don't seem to be able to get past the OP saying he can't hear a difference between YouTube and a CD. Is this just a 91 page troll?

Maybe. Although we get a lot of posts that reference the sound of some YouTube video. I think most are serious.

 

[dogberry]

That's sad.

 

[fpitas]

That's sad.

Well, yeah. The internet can be disappointing at times.

 

[Angsty]

I’m finally embracing how much my sense of aesthetics influences how I enjoy my system and playing music. It certainly isn’t all about sonics. I come to ASR because I am interested in the measurements which influence my buying choices, but what I play every day is not moved by that.

I’m considering dropping a bundle on a new turntable not exclusively because it will sound better than my current one (it may), but because I like the way it looks and feels. The way it looks and feels may make me want to play more of the music I already own and maybe buy more. It’s an enhancement of my musical experience that is not fully correlated to the performance improvement.

You’ll get no argument from me that vinyl has poorer measured characteristics than digital. I’d argue that it can create a different aesthetic experience, for good or bad. It’s that different experience that I think vinylphiles are seeking.

 

[RichB]

The "subjectivist" audiophiles are often portrayed as obsessed with gear, but pouring over measurements and spending time measuring gear, measuring room responses, setting up subwoofers, caring about distortion numbers...it's the same obsession by a different name, or with a somewhat different approach.

Audiophiles are gonna audiophile.

I've seen some people here say that when you look to objective data in buying gear and care about accuracy that's a path "off the subjectivist equipment merry-go-round." For one thing, if you like playing with equipment and can afford it, there's no need to get off the merry-go-round if you get a kick out of it. For another, as above, one can spend just as much time on measurements and sussing out accurate gear. On this forum there are people happy with what they have, and enjoy exchanging views on gear or learning about it, while others are eyeing new gear and upgrades. I still inhabit several more subjective-based forums and it's mostly the same dynamic. There are plenty who have had their favorite gear for many years, who are happy and not looking to upgrade, but they like discussing the hobby. I think we all seek to justify our own approach to others and to ourselves.

There is some "stop me before I kill again" going on with Objectivists too.
There is a belief, for example, that amps are measured well enough to remove all possibility of audible differences.
Audible differences generally defined as within .1 dB for listening tests.
Yet, you can find amps clearly deviating by more than that on simple sweeps into load, include kilo-buck, back braking works of art.
I have posted Stereophile measurements confirming this. Measurements are great, but I am willing to concede that they are incomplete.
Objectively, these are potentially audible differences, also note that amplifier distortion is not measured when driving reactive loads.
What happens to some of these feedback mechanisms, in some cases, maybe not be much but it is not measured.
Not to get off track, it is just worth noting where the Objectivist may lack curiosity.

On the Subjectivist side, I imagine, and number of vinyl aficionados are quite happy with the renaissance, finding themselves amongst the hip and cool.

I cannot go back to vinyl because, once you know its limitations, I just can't impose those on my systems.
This is, of course, an emotional response.

I know for a fact that there are albums, especially, older ones that were not properly mastered for CD, they sound thin and awful.
An example is one from that my father played called "Soul of Spain" that holds fond memories. The CD is atrocious.
If I cared enough, I would look into software that can correct for some of the LP equalization or just invest in tech to play and digitize the LP.
This is the modern-day equivalent of recording an LP to tape, only better. I friend gave me a few LP tracks that he digitized, and they sound pretty good.

Technically, I don't get the vinyl thing for modern recording, where the vast majority of them are digitally mastered.
The production of the vinyl master degrades the recording; production introduces additional loses.
Playback systems are inconvenient, inaccurate, and each playback degrades the recoding.
Some of these turntables are works of art and I understand the emotional and aesthetics involved with the turntable experience.
My left brain simply does not permit expending funds and enjoying the playback when I know these limitations.

I'd much rather put my money in the pursuit of well-engineered products that are delivering the source material in as transparent a manner as possible.
Streaming is a revelation since I like new music and tire of the much of the songs I heard in my youth,

In terms of recoding quality, most of the recordings are not using a 10'th of the capability of a CD.
I prefer to aspire and encourage better recordings and to avoid media that makes them impossible to attain.

- Rich

 

[JustJones]

It's like the Spanish Inquisition nobody expected the Vinyl Renaissance.

 

[MattHooper]

What ??
Why did most of us start spending the kind of money we do on HiFi ? 99% of the world think were nuts.
I love music and wanted the best sound I could purchase. The pursuit of HiFi has always been working and
spending to better hear what was in the grooves. IE accuracy. Shit I remember back in the day when "serious"
meant you had moved out of receiver into separates, later you weren't considered "serious" if your front end
had tone controls or a balance. Just input switching and volume. I ran a couple of passive preamps in that time LOL
It did have it's place at the time but was very limiting.


Because we couldn't afford better, why else.

Am I missing something?

Well, one of us is missing something because I don't understand what you are objecting to. You seem to be confirming what I said: "I love music and wanted the best sound I could purchase."

That's the ultimate driver for all of this: Sound that we perceive as "better" and how that can enhance listening to music.

It's why for instance people are constantly directed to the work of Floyd Toole and others whose research (especially with regard to speakers) confirms what type of sound people tend to prefer - rate as "better sound." Turns out that people generally like the sound better from a speaker is more neutral on axis with certain behavior off axis. That's why speakers tend to be rated here based on that research, and it's also why Amir includes his own subjective impressions describing how he often finds various deviations from this to be sonically off-putting, then going back to his Revels and enjoying the sound much more.

We can talk about colored vs accurate sound all day long, but the underlying motivation for audiophiles is to enjoy the sound of music through their system.
Like I said, if it wasn't about that, what could it be about?

 

[egellings]

We are sorely lacking in renaissance. Where is the cassette, 8-track, and reel-to-reel renaissance?
I suppose if you could make really cool 20+ pound cassette players, they might come back too.

Seriously (IMO of course), here is what the vinyl renaissance is about:

- People with existing collections
- Esthetics, there are some very beautiful turntables
- Nostalgia
- Tactile experience of selecting actual media and album art
- Absurdly bad digital mastering that can lead to a superior recording on vinyl (this may be getting better)

One thing I love about QOBUZ/Roon is the ability to discover music by letting Roon select artists/tracks.
This produces a different kind of renaissance (a revival of or renewed interest in something).

Digital Audio has its own travails, digital clipping, over-compression, weird reconstruction filters (I'm looking at you MQA), etc.
Rather than focusing on the components that create a good master, High-dynamic Range could have been presented as an option, but instead we got HD-Audio.
HD-Audio has more bits but can have a master that is as bad as the CD quality.

- Rich

I think that with tape players, there is not nearly the amount of prerecorded material available as there is on the vinyl record format. With tape, you have to record your own music, although that does open up the possibility of a mix tape. Tape machines are also much more maintenance dependent than record players are, and a worn-out tape head is difficult to replace compared to replacing a stylus or cartridge. Lotsa belts & rubber idler wheels to deal with, too.

 

[MattHooper]

The production of the vinyl master degrades the recording; production introduces additional loses.
Playback systems are inconvenient, inaccurate, and each playback degrades the recoding.
Some of these turntables are works of art and I understand the emotional and aesthetics involved with the turntable experience.
My left brain simply does not permit expending funds and enjoying the playback when I know these limitations.

That's like me and hot dogs. I love 'em. But I have to shut down my Left brain trying to tell me how they are made.

I'd much rather put my money in the pursuit of well-engineered products that are delivering the source material in as transparent a manner as possible.
Streaming is a revelation since I like new music and tire of the much of the songs I heard in my youth,

Understood. I don't see it as an either or thing; I enjoy both streaming and vinyl. Two nights ago I listened mostly to streaming via Tidal in my system. Last night it was vinyl.

I believe you refer to "transparent as possible" in terms of low distortion and accuracy to the signal. But in terms of "transparency" as it is often used in the audiophile world - generally the ability to hear in to a recording to all the fine details, unobscured by a system - I continue to be gobsmacked by what I can hear
from records from my turntable. I mean, it's not like I don't have digital to compare to it. I can be listening to my digital source, then switch right to vinyl and be utterly blown away by the sound as well.

I was playing a variety of old recordings last night, from crazy variations in soundtracks to 80's funk/new wave, to 80's new wave/metal etc. The sound in front of me utterly shape-shifted from recording to recording, like the front of my room was becoming all sorts of different acoustic spaces. I love that "transporter effect" from a system. I could hear the teeniest details, the finest details in cymbals, snares, guitars, reed instruments, the acoustic around the performance or the furthest little drops of reverb added to a wood block way in the back of the mix, everything beautifully clear and discernible. There were some lone drum parts that just felt it was "right there" happening in front of me in terms of the presence and clarity. Given how vinyl works, it's just nuts what is possible.

 

[fpitas]

So after 91 pages, we definitely know:

1. Some people like vinyl
2. Some like it, a lot!
3. Some other people think they're dumb for liking it
4. Some think it's OK
5. Some think it's an affront to right-thinking people
6. Some of us don't care a lot but are vaguely curious why some people like it

Did that cover it?

 

[egellings]

So after 91 pages, we definitely know:

1. Some people like vinyl
2. Some like it, a lot!
3. Some other people think they're dumb for liking it
4. Some think it's OK
5. Some think it's an affront to right-thinking people
6. Some of us don't care a lot but are vaguely curious why some people like it

Did that cover it?

7. Some people like to fiddle with the record players.

 

[Angsty]

I think that with tape players, there is not nearly the amount of prerecorded material available as there is on the vinyl record format. With tape, you have to record your own music, although that does open up the possibility of a mix tape. Tape machines are also much more maintenance dependent than record players are, and a worn-out tape head is difficult to replace compared to replacing a stylus or cartridge. Lotsa belts & rubber idler wheels to deal with, too.

Just for FYI, The Absolute Sound did name a "Open Reel Tape Machine of the Year": the Metaxas T-RX. That category caught me by surprise.

 

[JustJones]

Just for FYI, The Absolute Sound did name a "Open Reel Tape Machine of the Year": the Metaxas T-RX. That category caught me by surprise.

No 8-Track player of the year?

 

[Angsty]

No 8-Track player of the year?

If someone could find a way to sell 8-tracks for $30,000, I'm pretty sure they would add that, too.

 

[MattHooper]

I’m finally embracing how much my sense of aesthetics influences how I enjoy my system and playing music. It certainly isn’t all about sonics. I come to ASR because I am interested in the measurements which influence my buying choices, but what I play every day is not moved by that.

I’m considering dropping a bundle on a new turntable not exclusively because it will sound better than my current one (it may), but because I like the way it looks and feels. The way it looks and feels may make me want to play more of the music I already own and maybe buy more. It’s an enhancement of my musical experience that is not fully correlated to the performance improvement.

I hear you!

I never get tired of the aesthetics of my wacky set up, and the silky smooth operation of the german engineered speed controller and turntable are satisfying to use every time!

 

[Pearljam5000]

Vinyl is torture, you have to buy every album, you have to get up and actually put on a different record every few minutes, you have to clean them, you have to have storage room for them.
Yes they're cool and nostalgic, but it's just not worth it for me when streaming exists and I can literally have all the albums in the world.
Also the sound is less good and accurate than a good DAC.
If I had I had a ton of money and time and energy, i could maybe see myself buying a turntable just for fun.