Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[carewser]

Right, so your decision doesn't come into play to explain why there's a revival of interest in LPs. Your decision explains why LPs faded out for a while. But that's not the issue, we all know the reasons why CD were the king for a while. The question is "why, after all that, did LPs come back?"

Exactly, it's the revival of interest in it that confounds me given all of analog's shortcomings

I have to assume much of it is sheeple mentality, that if someone sees other people with LP's and turntables then they think they should have them as well with little thought given to the pros and cons

 

[carewser]

CDs would hold up to 74 minutes officially [80 if you're willing to risk a higher failure rate]. I've had SACDs that ran for more than 80

My bad, it's been so long since I owned any CD's I'd forgotten they're 74 minutes each but my point remains, how long until one needs to flip an LP? 20 minutes? 22 minutes?

 

[JP]

I still wonder why you would hang out on a science based audio site when you have no interest in the science side of audio?

I can't and wouldn't answer for Matt, but there's no mutual exclusivity between the two. I still wonder why the concept seems to break people's brains.

 

[Multicore]

I can't and wouldn't answer for Matt, but there's no mutual exclusivity between the two. I still wonder why the concept seems to break people's brains.

The objectivity that science can afford has its uses, among which can be enhanced subjective pleasure we may take in music. But i think for a lot of us the subjective part is still the ultimate goal.

 

[JP]

Of course. Listening is subjective. Period.

 

[MattHooper]

And if one has hands on [ears on?] experience with various microphones, one realizes how much of an impact on the sound and sound quality individual microphones have. Sometimes the wrong mic in the right place is more right than the right mic in the wrong place.

Another thought experiment: consider all the possible seating locations in a typical hall, something like Davis Hall in San Francisco. I've been in the front row, in front of the cellos, another time about ten rows or so back, in front of the tymps [MTT/Rite of Spring, just before he landed the post] and one time in the front of the balcony. All very different in sound quality, the balcony seat being vague and diffuse, the front row seat having the kind of impact one would expect from a recording.

I used to collect golden age classical LPs. Even though it was obvious to my ears that there were clicks 'n' pops and other groove noises coming off my Blue-Back Londons [a lot of the Stereo Treasury series was pressed off the same stampers], RCA "Shaded Dogs", Mercury Living Presence and so on, they were all fun to listen to, at least when the stern deities of the vinyl realm favored me. Assuming the pressing is perfectly centered [not a given], and the disc being in good condition [classical records have a very high probability of being played only once] there would be a sense of the sound being more "grabby" and direct. This could be due to various distortions, but it was a difference, one that I favored for a long time .

The experience of hearing an orchestra "live" might have the perspectives and clarity of a good recording, but the perspective offered via recording is going to have better balances than 90% of the seats in a performance venue. And a lot of relatively simply mic-ed orchestral recordings from the early days of stereo had the right microphones in the right places. The net result overcomes the limitations of analog tape and vinyl surfaces. When it's good, it can be better than being in the hall. While rustling/shuffling/coughing in a concert performance screws up the s/n ratio in much the same way as clicks 'n' pops, it signals inattention to these ears, being a bit more irritating than low-level clicks 'n' pops.

An uncompressed digital recording of an orchestra is going to be a bit more diffuse than its 60 year old analog counterpart. And some will favor that 60 year old sound over modern recordings thanks to gain riding and an enriched sense of hall ambience. It's not the same as "real" but it's a pleasant sound anyway. I wouldn't go back to LPs for reasons already cited, but I can understand why some would favor the sonic differences [in practice] of LP reproduction.

Yep. I've been dealing with the colorations and limitations of microphones for many years. Every recording you make requires being aware of the limitations and characteristics of your microphone.

 

[Sal1950]

I have to assume much of it is sheeple mentality, that if someone sees other people with LP's and turntables then they think they should have them as well with little thought given to the pros and cons

Right on the button, the boys and their toys mentality.

But i think for a lot of us the subjective part is still the ultimate goal.

But the best path to subjective pleasure from music is a SOTA music system.
Not listening to all of vinyls noises, distortions, and other problems that make just using it a major PITA.
Best sound quality is something the LP hasn't been relevant in for near 50 years.
If you tell me you love your TT as a play toy, you'll never hear a word from me, I promise.

 

[MattHooper]

It's just an enormous waste of server space but not my call in any case.



I know, we been down this road before. I still wonder why you would hang out on a science based audio site when you have no interest in the science side of audio? That's what we do here, most of the base members came here to get away from the constant subjectivist babel at other places. We look to discuss ways to improve audio's State Of The Art thru measurements of the gear and looking for it's weaknesses. From that viewpoint vinyl hasn't been relevant for close to 50 years now. Why not hang at Mikey Fremers Audio Planet where they talk about how purdy vinyl sounds ad infinitum?
I really like you and don't wish to insult you in any way, but I just don't understand you?

Fair enough Sal1950.

I've tried to explain why I a come to this forum numerous times, including on this thread:

Are you a Subjectivist or an Objectivist?

ever watched "Kung-Fu Panda" movie? - Amir taught u well! But he didn't teach u everything! .... - We were powerless against his Woo-Shoo touch!

www.audiosciencereview.com

My saying I "don't give a damn about SINAD" was a bit hyperbolic to make a point. I have indeed followed some of the threads (and on certain DACs as well), but it did get to the point of feeling I'd reached my level of interest and mostly stay out of those threads at this point.

I come here because the lack of woo-woo b.s. and magical/purely subjectivist thinking. I know enough to give a good defense of the scientific method, and also to explain to some degree why lots of audiophile tweaks are dubious. But I am very much not an electrical engineer, nor even a DIYer, so I stay in my lane. I don't have a lot of technical expertise in terms of engineering knowledge to share, meanwhile there are many truly knowledgeable pros and specialists (and DIYers with experience) giving knowledge here, so I'll read even if I don't contribute.
Even creaky old-timers like yourself have more experience than I do with vinyl, so I appreciate the knowledgeable talk on that subject here too. (I feel much more comfortable, for instance, with the informative discussions about turntable designs/isolation etc with the mindset and experience of this forum, than in pure subjective forums with all sorts of magical thinking and anecdote-as-truth polluting the knowledge base).

I read many of Amirm's reviews and have a massive appreciation of his youtube channel. Especially his taking on the more dubious products in the industry. It's glorious. And I learn from Amirm's reviews and also from the back and forth critiques of his reviews, or the subjects that arise in the review threads. There's a ton of info and discussion here that isn't just about "SINAD."

Cheers.

 

[Sal1950]

Yep. I've been dealing with the colorations and limitations of microphones for many years. Every recording you make requires being aware of the limitations and characteristics of your microphone.

But I always thought the idea of HiFi was to remove as many "colorations and limitations" as possible. So why are you still using a LP?

 

[levimax]

So why are you still using a LP?

If you really want to be practical and scientific with a strict adherence to "cost / benefits" analysis then anything besides streaming on a free or near free service is foolish and unscientific and needs to be discouraged or maybe even banned. While streaming is no doubt the practical choice it seems boring to me compared to having more format choices with their historical and artistic context, after all "hi-fi" is nothing more than a hobby. So why are you limiting yourself?

 

[Robin L]

But I always thought the idea of HiFi was to remove as many "colorations and limitations" as possible. So why are you still using a LP?

Not everybody thinks that, obviously.

 

[SubsonicLurker]

Despite having grown up with vinyl, 8-tracks and cassette tapes, I can offer no explanation as why records are popular again. For that matter, why are people buying cassette decks again?

There are certain circumstances, e.g. needing to listen at low volume levels, or inside an auto or airplane, where the compressed dynamic range of vinyl* could be a benefit since it makes it easier to hear the material. But those environments aren't exactly conducive to LP use.

* - cue outraged comments about how vinyl, since it's an analog medium, has (theoretically) infinite dynamic range since it's not limited to a particular sample size (but ignore the noise floor generated by dragging a diamond sliver across the surface of a rotating disc.)

 

[drmevo]

But I always thought the idea of HiFi was to remove as many "colorations and limitations" as possible. So why are you still using a LP?

Shouldn't you just be listening to headphones all the time then for the best accuracy possible?

 

[Inner Space]

But I always thought the idea of HiFi was to remove as many "colorations and limitations" as possible.

Most people here seem to agree with you, but only about the source and electronics. As soon as the signal is turned into sound, they seem to love coloration and time smearing from reflections bouncing around their rooms. They celebrate it as "envelopment" and so on. No one seems to complain. So why not extend the same indulgence to putting the colorations in the source? Doesn't seem logical to me. Seriously, why is it worse to enjoy, e.g., acoustic feedback in a record player than a storm of acoustic spuriae at the other end of the process?

 

[SubsonicLurker]

Shouldn't you just be listening to headphones all the time then for the best accuracy possible?

Theoretically, yes, but it would be predicated, amongst many other things, on:

1. uniform anatomical/head transfer function across listeners (https://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/cipic/spatial-sound/tutorial/hrtf/)
2. recordings being made in a binaural format

 

[Sal1950]

Shouldn't you just be listening to headphones all the time then for the best accuracy possible?

Nope, I listen on a 5.2.4 multich system.
Can't do that with cans. LOL

Most people here seem to agree with you, but only about the source and electronics. As soon as the signal is turned into sound, they seem to love coloration and time smearing from reflections bouncing around their rooms.

I don't think you give our membership enough credit.
A very large percentage have done extensive room treatment.
Plus are measuring their rooms with REW and using DSP to balance tonal abnormalities.

 

[Inner Space]

I don't think you give our membership enough credit.
A very large percentage have done extensive room treatment.
Plus are measuring their rooms with REW and using DSP to balance tonal abnormalities.

With respect, a very large percentage positively revere a guy who advocates adding coloration and time smearing via room reflections, and calling it "envelopment". Pleasant listening, I'm sure, but no more hi-fi than vinyl listening.

 

[theREALdotnet]

If you’re not listening to 8 tracks, you’re a poseur.

Some vinyl fans have stepped up to 8 tracks:

(imagine how trippy it must be using all four arms simultaneously…)

 

[drmevo]

Nope, I listen on a 5.2.4 multich system.
Can't do that with cans. LOL

There are headphones that do surround sound, aren't there?

 

[MattHooper]

But I always thought the idea of HiFi was to remove as many "colorations and limitations" as possible. So why are you still using a LP?

Because, as we've gone through before, that's just one concept of "Hi-Fi" but more important: I see this forum's main objective as producing "Accurate Knowledge Of Audio Gear" rather than enforcing a more strict "Devotion To A Specific Notion Of Hi-Fi."

In other words, knowing more about how some equipment works, what products do or don't do as they advertise etc, allows people to make advised decisions on reaching their particular goals. For instance, I don't see the remit of this forum to say "Don't Purchase Or Enjoy Old Klipsch Speakers!!" but rather to offer knowledge on what you are getting, vs alternatives, and then you are empowered with accurate information to...follow your own goal.

If we made this place some sort of Audio Hi-Fi Purity Test where only those with the most accurate possible systems were accommodated, this place would be pretty empty. Most systems have compromises here or there in terms of pure accuracy, and who gets to adjudicate which compromises pass the purity test?

I think most in this forum will say of vinyl, fine if you enjoy it, just don't be mislead by b.s. claims about it's superiority, and in a place like this you can learn why some vinyl myths are nonsense. That's the overriding value of a forum like this - a Big Tent approach for educating audio fans of various tastes and goals - not forcing everyone in to the same gear choices or exact goals.