Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[mhardy6647]

vinyl chloride → polyvinyl chloride (PVC)

Simple as that.

 

[Digital1955]

Argumentative Science Review

 

[Jaxjax]

(I'm convinced tubes are on life support at this point).

Audiophiles don't put a dent in tube sales compared to who keep it alive.
Guitarist.....
Audiophiles can't hold a candle the the freak show that goes on in guitar land. I chuckle on audiophile forums for decades now because it is so much worse on the other side.
The Kemper kids just hide out...

 

[Newman]

Argumentative Science Review

Oxymoron. It’s Argumentative anti-Science Review. (I know you knew that, but I’m just making it clear.)

Notice how the thread topic asks us to explain a social purchasing trend? There are only 2 ways to do that: launch in too-eagerly with one’s own thoughts on the matter (typically based on nothing but intuition - where’s the science in that?), or discover or create (and execute) a well-designed opinion survey on the matter.

Guess which way is dominating this thread? That’s right, the one that allows the over-opinionated fastest-typing keyboard warriors to go on, and on, and on, and on. The ones who think that if everyone else gets tired of reading their missives (let alone responding), they win. And the ones who take a paper-thin sliver of evidence and convince themselves that it is sufficient for them to insist it is The Truth and defend it to the death and demand that others disprove it.

Oh, science is right out of the window for this thread. Yes it’s a social science question, but the discussion lacks evidence and it lacks any rigour in any discussion of what little evidence has been posted. Eg how to get a properly randomized survey of LP buyers, so that when we ask them why vinyl, the answer isn’t dominated by audiophilia. And for those occasions when they say “because it sounds better”, how to eliminate sighted bias from Average Vinyl Joe’s belief that it is in the sound waves? Well, that would be hard to do as a social science experiment, so it hasn’t been done, so the science-based answer to the thread topic should be that we lack data of high enough quality to form a solid hypothesis.

End of thread — as an audio science discussion.

Start of thread — as an audio anti-science argument. Go on, off you go.

 

[antcollinet]

Oxymoron. It’s Argumentative anti-Science Review. (I know you knew that, but I’m just making it clear.)

Notice how the thread topic asks us to explain a social purchasing trend? There are only 2 ways to do that: launch in too-eagerly with one’s own thoughts on the matter (typically based on nothing but intuition - where’s the science in that?), or discover or create (and execute) a well-designed opinion survey on the matter.

Guess which way is dominating this thread? That’s right, the one that allows the over-opinionated fastest-typing keyboard warriors to go on, and on, and on, and on. The ones who think that if everyone else gets tired of reading their missives (let alone responding), they win. And the ones who take a paper-thin sliver of evidence and convince themselves that it is sufficient for them to insist it is The Truth and defend it to the death and demand that others disprove it.

Oh, science is right out of the window for this thread. Yes it’s a social science question, but the discussion lacks evidence and it lacks any rigour in any discussion of what little evidence has been posted. Eg how to get a properly randomized survey of LP buyers, so that when we ask them why vinyl, the answer isn’t dominated by audiophilia. And for those occasions when they say “because it sounds better”, how to eliminate sighted bias from Average Vinyl Joe’s belief that it is in the sound waves? Well, that would be hard to do as a social science experiment, so it hasn’t been done, so the science-based answer to the thread topic should be that we lack data of high enough quality to form a solid hypothesis.

End of thread — as an audio science discussion.

Start of thread — as an audio anti-science argument. Go on, off you go.

Its an internet forum. Its not a bug, its a feature.

 

[Cote Dazur]

This thread never cease to amaze me. In one corner we have those who believe one medium is superior because it measure better therefore it is better, in the other corner we have those who think an other medium is better because when they use it for what it is made for, listening to music, they like it better.
Meanwhile in the real world, an increasing amount of people are spending money on the other medium, which is also less practical, more expensive, more fragile, just because they like the music better. That is a big issue for the people who like the medium who measure better on test tone, as when they listen to music with that medium, it also sound better to them, and it is more practical, less fragile and less expensive.
From where I stand, the people who defend the medium that measure better have either dropped completely the other medium or use it on low end, cheap device and surprisingly enough largely prefer the better measuring medium. The people that prefer the other medium, also listen to the better measuring medium, but they use the best available technology to enjoy both, it just happens that they prefer the other medium.
It also looks like that the better measuring medium people are quite upset against the other group. But the other group is quite happy using both mediums, for what both medium bring to the table, not always sure to understand why the better measuring medium group is so upset.
The better measuring medium group seems to be afraid of “snake oil” maybe not understanding that they already are swimming in it, better measurement is just that, not what we like better, which is what end up to be better for us, as individuals. Like it or not.

 

[Frgirard]

This thread never cease to amaze me. In one corner we have those who believe one is superior because it better therefore it is better, in the other corner we have those who think an other is better because when they use it for what it is made for, listening to music, they like it better.
Meanwhile in the real world, an increasing amount of people are spending money on the other , which is also less practical, more expensive, more fragile, just because they like the music better. That is a big issue for the people who like the who better on test tone, as when they listen to music with that , it also sound better to them, and it is more practical, less fragile and less expensive.
From where I stand, the people who defend that better have either dropped completely the other or use it on low end, cheap device and surprisingly enough largely prefer the better . The people that prefer the other , also listen to the better , but they use the best available technology to enjoy both, it just happens that they prefer the other .
It also looks like that the better people are quite upset against the other group. But the other group is quite happy using both s, for what both bring to the table, not always sure to understand why the better group is so upset.
The better group seems to be afraid of “snake oil” maybe not understanding that they already are swimming in it, better is just that, not what we like better, which is what end up to be better for us, as individuals. Like it or not.

 

[charleski]

an increasing amount of people are spending money on the other medium, which is also less practical, more expensive, more fragile, just because they like the music better.

Let's take a look at the most popular turntables sold by Amazon UK:

LPs and turntables have indeed seen a surprising resurgence. But I think it's clear that for most of the buyers you can't tie this to any index of sound quality. Vinyl is cool, and that's fine.

 

[Waxx]

Let's take a look at the most popular turntables sold by Amazon UK:
View attachment 233508
LPs and turntables have indeed seen a surprising resurgence. But I think it's clear that for most of the buyers you can't tie this to any index of sound quality. Vinyl is cool, and that's fine.

But the average vinyl buyer, at least down here, don't buy their stuff on Amazon. Most used turntables here are by far Technics, old and new (and not only the SL1200, also other models) followed by Rega and Project turntables (mostly the lower priced ones) and the AT-LP120. And second hand turntables is a bussiness that is going strong here in Belgium, i know quiet a few people who make a living of it restoring and selling old turntables. They mostly don't have a stock as their restored turntables are sold before they are even restored...

These kind of crap turntables are not that popular here, in that sense that major shops like Mediamarkt and Selexion don't have them anymore (or in very small quantities). They used to carry them, but they did not sell fast enough for that kind of brick and mortar electronic stores. Their vinyl section, when they have one (the big ones have) sells a lot, more than cd's actually.

 

[Frgirard]

But the average vinyl buyer, at least down here, don't buy their stuff on Amazon.

Here; is nothing and not representive of the majority.

the majority is https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...lain-the-vinyl-renaissance.32420/post-1330560

they don't care about the sound. they don't care about the sound. They want to be in it and find themselves super cool.

 

[charleski]

But the average vinyl buyer, at least down here, don't buy their stuff on Amazon.

That's just a completely unsubstantiated assertion.
Tier 2 sellers like Mediamarkt (which seems similar to Richer Sounds here in the UK) generally don't bother with gear that doesn't provide enough margin. But looking at their 'topsellers' list shows plenty of gems from the likes of Lenco and Soundmaster ('Einfach Klasse' according to one review ...). Looking at their brand list shows they don't even carry niche brands like Rega or Project.

My sister got into vinyl because her partner has an old collection he loves and has built up over decades. They have a Crosley and an old Pioneer deck whose stylus needs a clean. I did at least manage to convince them that the system would sound better if they moved the speakers out from under the coffee table....

 

[Waxx]

That's just a completely unsubstantiated assertion.
Tier 2 sellers like Mediamarkt (which seems similar to Richer Sounds here in the UK) generally don't bother with gear that doesn't provide enough margin. But looking at their 'topsellers' list shows plenty of gems from the likes of Lenco and Soundmaster ('Einfach Klasse' according to one review ...). Looking at their brand list shows they don't even carry niche brands like Rega or Project.

My sister got into vinyl because her partner has an old collection he loves and has built up over decades. They have a Crosley and an old Pioneer deck whose stylus needs a clean. I did at least manage to convince them that the system would sound better if they moved the speakers out from under the coffee table....

Those lists are not what you think they are, they are a marketing tool. I worked for that shop, and it's not the sales numbers, but the marketing dep who makes that order. No one in Belgium takes those lists serious.

And Media Market is not the typical place where Belgians buy their hifi stuff, they go to more traditonal music stores for that as they want to test and discuss with a "specialist" which the Media Market does not provide. The media market is a very noisy hall stacked with mostly cheap electronic products and understaffed for the work that needs to be done. Traditional hifi stores are a bit more expensive, but you can listen en discuss stuff with the sales people...

And don't underestimate the second hand market in Belgium, it's huge, and stuff gets repaired and restored untill it's beyond repair. Belgians are in general very conservative on new tech (and in general). And those who listen to vinyl are also those who care about sound and mostly first search the second hand market for known brands and models that work. I think way more second hand turntables are sold than new down here.

 

[atmasphere]

Audiophiles don't put a dent in tube sales compared to who keep it alive.
Guitarist.....
Audiophiles can't hold a candle the the freak show that goes on in guitar land. I chuckle on audiophile forums for decades now because it is so much worse on the other side.
The Kemper kids just hide out...

As a FWIW: class D is making tremendous inroads in the guitar world. This is because these days there are thousands of guitar effects pedals available and so any guitarist can sculpt their sound to be uniquely theirs. Tube guitar amps (unless you have a smaller amp, which counterintuitively are favored by a lot of metal bands) tend to be heavy and fragile, not the easiest thing to work with when doing shows. So the lighter and more reliable class D amps (serious ones, not the toys that started showing up a decade ago) have been taken very seriously by working musicians.

The guitar market has pretty well kept tube manufacturers in business. As more successful class D guitar amps show up the tubes are going to get edged out. That will get tricky for them as the tubes can make distortion that is hard to duplicate with solid state sometimes. Of course low signal types can be used to do that but if the manufacturer can't afford to make them they could vanish too.

 

[Waxx]

As a FWIW: class D is making tremendous inroads in the guitar world. This is because these days there are thousands of guitar effects pedals available and so any guitarist can sculpt their sound to be uniquely theirs. Tube guitar amps (unless you have a smaller amp, which counterintuitively are favored by a lot of metal bands) tend to be heavy and fragile, not the easiest thing to work with when doing shows. So the lighter and more reliable class D amps (serious ones, not the toys that started showing up a decade ago) have been taken very seriously by working musicians.

The guitar market has pretty well kept tube manufacturers in business. As more successful class D guitar amps show up the tubes are going to get edged out. That will get tricky for them as the tubes can make distortion that is hard to duplicate with solid state sometimes. Of course low signal types can be used to do that but if the manufacturer can't afford to make them they could vanish too.

What I sometimes see in that, is the power amp is class D but the preamp stage is still tube to have the tube overdrive sound. That is not done with the power tubes, only with thre preamp tubes in a classic layout guitar amp so for touring some rockband use that kind of config. In the studio they still remain on the small tube amps that they use for decades now. And many are very adverse to class D or solid state in general for guitar amps still. So i would not say it's getting popular, but some use it (and you hardly hear it when done right).

 

[charleski]

And Media Market is not the typical place where Belgians buy their hifi stuff

Really? Well you're the one who suggested I take a look at what they sold...

If you're going to argue that the majority of hifi is sold through small specialist shops or at second-hand markets, you're going to have to come up with some extraordinary evidence for such a bizarre claim. I see nothing to indicate that people in Belgium are any different to those anywhere else in Europe or the US, and they buy most of their stuff online through major retailers. Likewise, the majority of people who've driven the vinyl revival are listening to their cool new LPs on decks that cost €150 or less (sometimes a lot less).

I found an interesting comparison of cheap vs mid-range turntables which experimented to see whether the cheapos really do damage records. Even though I'm a crusty old sceptic, the difference seemed clearly apparent. People with a suitcase turntable are clearly not driven by sound quality. So the 'Lots of people are buying records now! That must mean they sound better!' argument doesn't even begin to hold water.

 

[Waxx]

Really? Well you're the one who suggested I take a look at what they sold...

If you're going to argue that the majority of hifi is sold through small specialist shops or at second-hand markets, you're going to have to come up with some extraordinary evidence for such a bizarre claim. I see nothing to indicate that people in Belgium are any different to those anywhere else in Europe or the US, and they buy most of their stuff online through major retailers. Likewise, the majority of people who've driven the vinyl revival are listening to their cool new LPs on decks that cost €150 or less (sometimes a lot less).

I found an interesting comparison of cheap vs mid-range turntables which experimented to see whether the cheapos really do damage records. Even though I'm a crusty old sceptic, the difference seemed clearly apparent. People with a suitcase turntable are clearly not driven by sound quality. So the 'Lots of people are buying records now! That must mean they sound better!' argument doesn't even begin to hold water.

Off course they buy online, but not in the big "brick and mortar" stores, more in webshops of smaller more specialised traders just like they did in real shops before internet. Amazon does not has a dedicated belgian store (so many hesistate for tax and shipping costs reasons), and bol.com or other big retailers don't sell a lot of turntables. They come from webshops of existing hifi stores (that often only survived because of the webshop) and technics is general (for the not-audio nerds) seen as the best arround from the actual production so everybody who can afford technics buys technics. Those webshops give a more personalised experience, something the average hifi buyer here wants.

Cheaper turntables are sold, but not those crossley suitcase crap. It's generally known that it's crap and that a Lenco or an Audio Technica is a lot better for little more. And most work with older vintage models, mostly neatly restored by specialised people who live from it. It's the same with speakers and so, old stuff is used and reused untill it's beyond repair as the general public think the quality of today is lower than what it was in the past...

 

[Frank Dernie]

This thread never cease to amaze me. In one corner we have those who believe one medium is superior because it measure better therefore it is better, in the other corner we have those who think an other medium is better because when they use it for what it is made for, listening to music, they like it better.
Meanwhile in the real world, an increasing amount of people are spending money on the other medium, which is also less practical, more expensive, more fragile, just because they like the music better. That is a big issue for the people who like the medium who measure better on test tone, as when they listen to music with that medium, it also sound better to them, and it is more practical, less fragile and less expensive.
From where I stand, the people who defend the medium that measure better have either dropped completely the other medium or use it on low end, cheap device and surprisingly enough largely prefer the better measuring medium. The people that prefer the other medium, also listen to the better measuring medium, but they use the best available technology to enjoy both, it just happens that they prefer the other medium.
It also looks like that the better measuring medium people are quite upset against the other group. But the other group is quite happy using both mediums, for what both medium bring to the table, not always sure to understand why the better measuring medium group is so upset.
The better measuring medium group seems to be afraid of “snake oil” maybe not understanding that they already are swimming in it, better measurement is just that, not what we like better, which is what end up to be better for us, as individuals. Like it or not.

The people who are most delighted with my LP system are young people who are just delighted and amazed it works at all and love watching the TT and the whole shebang.
My granddaughter was and is riveted but she has zero interest in sound quality, she just loves music. Like my wife, as long as she can hear a tune she likes she is happy but the record player is cool.

IME there is a very broad span of people who listen to music on everything from fancy HiFi to smart speakers or their laptop.

SQ is rarely a big deal for the vast majority of my music enjoying friends and family - in fact I am the only one who has a good qulaity HiFi, my wife, a professional musician, has a quite nice system in her music room but mainly listens on her laptop…

 

[charleski]

Off course they buy online, but not in the big "brick and mortar" stores, more in webshops of smaller more specialised traders

Source

No, they don't.
It would be better if you stopped trying to base your argument on supposition.

 

[antcollinet]

View attachment 233594
Source

No, they don't.
It would be better if you stopped trying to base your argument on supposition.

That table doesn't necessarily contradict what @Waxx said.


To do so, it would have to show specifically revenues from audio kit AND would have to show the total revenue of all the smaller audio web stores combined.

As it is it only shows which online stores individually have the biggest revenues for all stuff sold - and is not a particular surprise.

 

[krabapple]

Can anyone explain why this garbage thread is approaching 1,500 posts?