Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[MakeMineVinyl]

Don’t we all….but you gotta earn that.

So much is evident by the "Technical Expert" badge below your avitar.

 

[Newman]

I don't see a contradiction. The first statement was about direct to disc recordings. The second two were not.

FFS debate the topic. Don't try to play gotcha

My bad obviously.

@tonycollinet ???

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I’m not asking for it to be discussed, I am asking to know what *most* people know. PM is fine.

Stop being rude.

I just cannot believe this, but I can't stop staring at it, like when I drive past a traffic accident.

 

[Newman]

So much is evident by the "Technical Expert" badge below your avitar.

Modesty becomes me

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Modesty becomes me

I admire your restraint.

 

[antcollinet]

I just cannot believe this, but I can't stop staring at it, like when I drive past a traffic accident.

Stunning isn't it.

 

[Newman]

I just cannot believe this, but I can't stop staring at it, like when I drive past a traffic accident.

Being told “it has fuck all to do with you” and “go troll elsewhere” isn’t rude?

 

[antcollinet]

@tonycollinet ???

I still don't see any contradiction. And certainly nothing worth of a "gotcha"

 

[atmasphere]

You have to be joking right?

I wasn't necessarily talking redbook CD 16 bit 44.1kHz but even that's far better than vinyl in every measure. Dynamic range is ~26db better. Stereo separation is a good 40-50db better. Wow and flutter it's not even a contest as digital it's not even measurable. Distortion again not even a contest.

Who cares about the bandwidth of the cutting head as it's the inverse of what we hear through the preamp. The RIAA eq in the playback chain is the opposite and reduces high frequency response. Besides the RIAA eq of the playback amp have a look at the specs of carts, typically you are already -1db at 20kHz so the cutting head is moot.

I don't kid myself trying to justify vinyl as superior spec wise because it's not even close but that doesn't stop me from enjoying it as I already stated. I completely agree with you about the LP being a conscious act and listening to vinyl does tend to immerse me more into music, I also like the notion I have a physical analog copy of the material even though another negative aspect of the LP is it degrades over time with use.

I absolutely love vinyl but I'm not going to kid myself that it's superior to digital. Both have their time and place to me and I enjoy both immensely.

If you look at my prior post, I did not say vinyl was superior. I only said that the word 'far' was making a prior post false. Remove the word 'far' and 'superior' remains. Digital was not/is not vastly superior, its a little bit better in some ways, a lot better in others and worse in still others. Your comment about down at 20KHz by 1 dB is questionable, given that even cheap cartridges are good well past 30KHz. OTOH, the phono section you made that measurement on might have been a bit off; IME that is far more common.

Is vinyl-based playback *flat* from 20Hz to 20kHz? Can the artist's master recording always 'fit' onto vinyl without compromise? And be perfectly pitch-stable? And have zero crosstalk? And have an available dynamic range of >90dB?

No one cares about upstream capability if it can't be maintained at the listener end.

Vinyl is amazing for what it can achieve within its limitations. But there's a reason it was *classical* recording engineers , people devoted to 'high fidelity', who spurred the consumer digital audio revolution.




LPs were commodities once and were often played 'in the background'. (At several gatherings of young folks I've been to since the vinyl renaissance, they still were)

This has been true of every popular playback medium.

Streaming is just radio with the consumer as the DJ. One can listen with intent, or not. People who love music will pay attention regardless.

Vinyl playback is easily flat 20-20KHz. Heck, its good to well past that as I mentioned earlier. We used to test our cuts with a 30KHz test tone and the Grado Gold on our SL1200 in the studio had no trouble playing it back. As you point out, the problems show up at the listener end and IMO/IME this is where digital shines- very little in the way of setup hassles.

To be clear no-one uses dynamic range of even 90dB! The reason is that the industry expects (as I pointed out earlier) that any digital release will be played in a car and so compression is applied to this account. As I mentioned earlier, when we would do a project using a digital source file, we always tried to get a version that had at the most normalization applied because we could make a better sounding cut- one that was more dynamic than the digital release. It is an industry thing and I'm not the only LP mastering engineer that does this.

Now, this may happen to you, of course. What makes you think it applies to others as well?

I know several tonearm manufacturers that claim this is a major selling point (AJ Conti before his death, Triplanar and Mr Kuzma to name a few...). It ain't just me! But as I said, CDs share this aspect, although you have to be a bit more intentioned to make sure the LP is dusted, the stylus clean before playing- all the 'ritual' of proper playback.

No matter how quiet the vinyl surface, the cartridge will have about a 70 dB limit because of Johnson noise.

In practice, it appears this statement is incorrect. Of course as you might imagine I got my hands on some very quiet electronics which are about -75dB to which adding the cartridge made them a bit quieter. Playing a new cut on the lacquer you could not tell that the surface had been engaged. So I suspect your numbers are flawed somehow. Right about this point I know it sounds a bit ridiculous, but its a real eye opener to spend some time with a lathe and cutter as I have; when I got mine going about 10 years ago a lot of the preconceived notions I had about vinyl died an ugly death.

For example, the primary limitation of dynamic range is not the cutter- it can cut undistorted grooves no pickup has a chance of playing. Also I discovered that if you spend time with the project you don't need to apply any compression- the use of that is simply to save time (and lacquers). Also, the separation is more a function of playback than it is record. Quite often people malign vinyl for these limitations when the real problem is the playback apparatus rather than the actual medium. Tonearm manufacturers like Triplanar are pushing that boundary back quite a lot but of course that stuff is expensive. A Topping DAC OTOH isn't (I enjoy mine quite a lot).

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Being told “it has fuck all to do with you” and “go troll elsewhere” isn’t rude?

Its kinda rude to insist on knowing one's work affiliation when someone wishes to keep that private.

 

[antcollinet]

Being told “it has fuck all to do with you” and “go troll elsewhere” isn’t rude?

Not compared with demanding personal information when you've been told he doesn't want to give it. Plus you were initially told politely. That didn't seem to work.


Your desire to know (weird though that is) does not equate to a right to know.

 

[Newman]

Show me where I demanded? I just asked.

Since 99.999% of people listed as “manufacturer”, who actually are manufacturers, would bust a gut to promote, my enquiry was 100% innocent and the exact opposite of doxing, I expected it would be routine Q&A.

Where it actually went (not a manufacturer after all, but a designer-employee who (apparently) most people here know who he is and is with, but this widely-known information is going to be specifically withheld from me in particular, and let’s spew rude stuff all over me for daring to ask, no, demand), is bizarre IMHO.

But hey, that’s the internet for you.

 

[antcollinet]

Show me where I demanded? I just asked.

 

[G|force]

There are better ways of making arguments than using automobile reference. I'm a car nut and racing fan, and it seems to be limes to limes comparison but it's not quite lemons to limes.
I try to expand my explanations without using analogy, but it is easy to use analogy.
As always I'm a lover and a reader so carry on

 

[pseudoid]

Vinyl playback is easily flat 20-20KHz.

What does that got to do with the price of rice in China (re: 'Renaissance')?
I thought the lowest octave had issues but (be that as it may) what about some of the less mentioned specs like channel separation?
What about the sound quality (et al) reduction during each play?
How about proper tracking/alignment procedural discussions?
But the 'Renaissance' is doing okay despite all these shortcomings which have very little to do w/the subject matter.
Yes?
[sorry, to have interrupted your OT but I'll keep trying]

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

There are better ways of making arguments than using automobile reference. I'm a car nut and racing fan, and it seems to be limes to limes comparison but it's not quite lemons to limes.
I try to expand my explanations without using analogy, but it is easy to use analogy.
As always I'm a lover and a reader so carry on

I use steam locomotives for my analogies, but sometimes people don't get it.

 

[G|force]

Here is a note proving I'm a human- Has anyone here ever used or heard a Meridian 588 CD player? That is the last CD player I owned before selling it on and making rips (rastor image process) No that is CMYK that RIP word. Robots get smarter when they read this bs

 

[Newman]

I use steam locomotives for my analogies, but sometimes people don't get it.

Steam locomotives can be as quiet as electric cars. Works for me!

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

What does that got to do with the price of rice in China (re: 'Renaissance')?
I thought the lowest octave had issues but (be that as it may) what about some of the less mentioned specs like channel separation?
What about the sound quality (et al) reduction during each play?
How about proper tracking/alignment procedural discussions?
But the 'Renaissance' is doing okay despite all these shortcomings which have very little to do w/the subject matter.
Yes?
[sorry, to have interrupted your OT but I'll keep trying]

Channel separation is indeed far worse for vinyl. Tracking setup etc, etc is on the end user to deal with. Most people are not willing to put the necessary effort toward educating themselves on this rather arcane skill, and that can be the cause of some dissatisfaction with vinyl playback quality.

On the issue of wear, I must firmly disagree. Literally I have LPs which I bought in the late 1960s and know every tick and where they occur, and the general noise level. Despite some of them being played to death, none have any buildup of clicks/pops/ticks or surface noise to this day which weren't already there when new. I do take exceptional care of my records, clean them with a brush before every play, keep the stylus clean and my turntables have always had covers to keep out dust. I also have used cartridges which allow tracking forces of 1 gram or slightly more. I have CDs of some of these LPs and doing back to back comparisons, there just isn't any noise which could be attributed to repeated playing.

But I admit I'm in a minority in willingness to take these steps to take care of my records.

 

[JP]

Where it actually went (not a manufacturer after all, but a designer-employee who (apparently) most people here know who he is and is with, but this widely-known information is going to be specifically withheld from me in particular, and let’s spew rude stuff all over me for daring to ask, no, demand), is bizarre IMHO.

FFS. You act like there's a closed club or something. I know who he works for because I read his posts, which is I'm sure how everyone else knows who he works for.