I took a couple of days out of my agenda and listened to CD, High rez up to 2666 kbps and YouTube and I decided that for PoP music You tube is a excellent source.
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Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?
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Yeah, that kind of oversensitivity would spoil a lot of fun. Personally I find prefixing alt to a given genre usually improves the perceived sonic experience.
deweydm
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Considering the timeline, LPs are like a drunken uncle who disappeared for a long time, that everyone assumed was dead, then surprisingly returned. I mean, I love ‘em, but it’s very weird they haven’t disappeared again yet.I don’t think that makes the point you meant to make.
In the face of the incredible convenience advantage of streaming, which physical medium was abandoned for streaming? (Hint: iPods/CD)
Which physical medium has been stubbornly growing for 17 years and which is selling more at this point?
Hint: not CD.
Just like with film camera grain and non-linearity vs. digital megapixel perfection, LPs have that certain je ne sais quoi that captures some people's affection.
I bet you could hit 100% if you were streaming a multich file over Spotify's 2ch only offerings.
Look up "logical fallacy" and your statement is a perfect example.
If you truly love music, it makes perfect sense to listen to it in a way that presents it with fidelity, makes you close your eyes while you listen to it, and go "yeees!". If you find yourself not playing music but looking at your gear and going "yeees"... you might indeed be a gearhead, until you play music at least.
But loving music in no way equals to not giving a crap about the gear you play it with.
Robin L
Master Contributor
Maybe. But the people I've known who love music enough to learn how to play it, or who compose it, by and large do not show audiophile predilections. I know of a famous conductor of "Early Music" who had a music room with a harpsichord, a viol and, tucked in a corner, a plastic all-in-one stereo with built-in CD player and cassette deck. Not hi-fi. This is someone with a lot of recordings on a major label known for audiophile recordings The director of the music group that plays for an elementary school assembly I'm involved with has a piano, multiple mandolins, several guitars and a tiny (1 & 1/2" x 7" x 9") cd player that sits on a counter in the kitchen. Loving music might not always equal not giving a crap about the gear one plays recorded music on, but it often does. And I would say that these sorts of people love music more than your bog-standard audiophile does.
Correlation is not causation.
Plenty of musicians who love great gear as well. Then again, they have easy accessibility to the highest fidelity, so why waste big money? But they appreciate when something sounds life like. Plenty of us in here clearly love music, and gear is merely a vehicle for a more immersive appreciation. I have always called my main system my "music shrine".
Robin L
Master Contributor
I suspect that instrumentalists, given the choice between better playback gear and a better instrument, will go for upgrading the instrument. "The closest approach to the original sound" is the original sound, after all. I'm sure Mark Knopfler has great playback gear, but you ought to see his guitar collection!Correlation is not causation.
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You and Sal, though this thread, have often suggested that one's choice in playback gear and/or medium indicates whether one is "in it for the music" vs "choosing gear/music mediums based on non-musical considerations." You know: the audiophile who engages in all the unnecessary distractions to "just the music."
The argument, made explicitly or implicitly, that certain choices indicate one is “all about the music” where other choices - e.g. choosing records - suggest otherwise.
In other words, if one is "all about the music" then there are obvious choices to be made, and someone making those choices isn't "all about the music."
Hence, your response to a post citing CDs being far cheaper than LPs:
Exactly. If one is “all about the music”, the choice makes itself.
If I misunderstood your post, please explain what you meant by that statement.
As I've pointed out, once you try to demarcate the choices a person would make if they are "all about the music" you very quickly end up in your own glass house with a rock in your hand, ESPECIALLY as an audiophile on an audiophile forum. Because then any of your choices can be picked on by someone else as an indication you are not "all about the music." Like...being a member of a forum explicitly dedicated to The Gear. And spending time making thousands of posts discussing and arguing about audio gear and mediums. Reading books about equipment, blind testing etc. Purchasing gear plenty of music lovers don't need at all to enjoy music. Etc.
It is a time honoured move in the audiophile community to try to demarcate between those who are "all about the music" - which is often assumed to be the purest form of the goal - and those audiophiles who care "more about the gear" and who spend their time fiddling with non-sonic/non-music factors in their system. It's a subtle put down used all the time to put oneself in the purer "I'm about the music" side of the ledger.
Oh...and to support this point, here come's Sal, right on time...
^^^ See what I mean?
Sal has shown up to tell us who is "all about the music" and who is not. In the usual judgmental fashion. Gee...which side of the ledger do you think Sal just happens to put himself on? Would it be...the side that is "all about the music?" What a coincidence.
Sal: You have spent huge amounts of time fussing about audio equipment, and discussing/debating audio equipment, and debating the merits of various sonic mediums, and spend untold hours on a forum devoted to audio gear.
The attention you devote to audio gear vastly swamps that given by the average Taylor Swift fan, who can thoroughly enjoy her music on everything from crappy ear buds, or a laptop, or a cheap Amazon-bought turntable. Now, do you want to claim that you care more about music, or enjoy music more, or are more "all about the music" than a fervent Taylor Swift fan (or any of countless other examples of non-audiophile music lovers)?
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Look up "logical fallacy" and your statement is a perfect example.
I believe you have misunderstood the point of my replies.
See my previous reply to Newman and Sal.
I'm pointing out that IF you start trying to demarcate between people, or audiophiles in particular, who are "all about the music" vs others, by trying to say "this choice indicates one is all about the music, THAT choice does not"... THEN, especially as an audiophile in an audiophile forum, you are vulnerable to the same arguments against YOUR choices. That's not a demarcation an audiophile is going to "win."
And not ethat the audiophiles making these distinctions usually "just happen" to place themselves in the "all about the music" category: the one generally implied to have an underlying merit, where one isn't distracted by the gear or non-musical factors, but is devoted solely to "the music."
So...about this:
Absolutely! That is my view as well! Some non-audiophiles also try the demarcation game: audiophiles just care about the gear, not music. But that's wrong too! For the very reason you have given. Being really enthusiastic about audio gear in no way means not loving the music!
I could also rephrase your statement to: But loving music in no way equals to NOT choosing vinyl records as your preferred listening medium.
And wouldn't you agree with that statement? Yet Newman and Sal continually push the idea that buying records means you have made a choice indicating your emphasis on The Music has fallen short. That's the fallacy I'm addressing.
If we take that statement as "this is a reasonable approach for an individual to enjoy music" then we are in perfect agreement. There are many ways to skin that cat.
But IF that posits it is The Most Reasonable Approach, e.g. the one a rational music lover would take, THEN you would be falling in to the quicksand I've been indicating.
Because then a non-audiophile who loves music can point out that she does not require any of this "fidelity" stuff, and the often extra expense and attention devoted to it, in order to get just that musical experience. And the audiophile who plays vinyl and/or uses tube amps can also point out his less accurate system results in similar musical bliss. So you can explain the route that gets YOU PERSONALLY to be able to enjoy music best, but you will have trouble making arguments that this is the most reasonable route for others to achieve the same.
Everyone has her own way to musical bliss. But IF we are to speak in such terms, then it would seem odd to say audiophiles on this forum are just about the music. This is an audiophile site; not a music site. People are here because they are enthusiastic about the audio gear, not JUST the music. People here spend time debating about gear, reading about gear, looking at measurements, even when they already have a system and aren't looking for a new piece of gear. Because...they have a fascination with audio gear, not just The Music. Doesn't mean they aren't just as passionate about music as a non-audiophile music lover. But it would seem clear we care about more than Just The Music.
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mhardy6647
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366 days in 2024 CE
366 pages in this thread - finally.
Now we're talkin'!
366 pages in this thread - finally.
Now we're talkin'!
If everyone put Sal on ignore like I did a long time ago this thread would be a lot cleaner. Einstein would have something to say about you continuing to engage with him.Oh...and to support this point, here come's Sal, right on time...
This is actually a very interesting take, and something I have been suspecting for a while. 5 years ago, even though vinyl was starting to surge, I was able to pick up new titles while sticking to keeping everything under $10 unless it was something I really wanted, and then I'd cap it at $20. Nowadays I expect to pay $25 minimum, so I am forcing myself to cap the size of my overall collection to 300 records, and if I get one I need to get rid of one.
I wonder if a bubble is forming if/when many of the new-to-the-hobby twenty-somethings driving the demand decide to sell their collections. Resellers will have to hoard stock like diamonds to create supply problems.
I don't think loving music results in *any* kind of mandated behavior when it comes to chosing gear, indeed. You could love music, but then you just whistle it at home or sing in the shower without ever touching any electronics.
But under this thread's title: Do I personally think vinyl is the best possible medium for everybody? No way, not for me, but I don't wage a war against those whose preference goes that way. Let 'em enjoy it, unless they start spewing the BS about me making all the wrong choices with "sharp, unpleasant" digital presentation of music. Outside the internet, I have good friends that play vinyl for me, and it's enjoyable. But that's a separate topic.
I disagree with that. I have participated in many discussions about music. Even food and motorcycles and cats. That's what makes this forum the only audio forum I participate in.
There are plenty of topics discussing piano recordings, best jazz albums, modern classical composers... if that wasn't the case I would not be here. If you haven't seen those, it says more about you than the overall forum participants... The gear discussions for the most part are repetitive and -honestly- kinda boring. It's when the rubber meets the road (aka *listening* to music) that things get interesting.
Robin L
Master Contributor
An audiophile forum is impossible without discussion of music. Full stop.
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Cool. We do indeed agree.
So to take vinyl as an example, apropos of this thread:
When it comes to one's love of music, take 3 possible examples:
1. Someone who loves music, but just listens to music via streaming.
2. Someone who loves music, but buys much of their music on vinyl because they ALSO enjoy the non-music features of records: the artwork, physical object, collecting, turntables etc.
3. Someone who loves music, but buys much of their music on vinyl, and who likes the aesthetics, physicality, collecting, turntables in part BECAUSE those seem to increase their music listening experiences.
All 3 love music, and get there using their own method. There should be no judging as to who is more committed to loving The Music.
(Nor do I think should someone who happens to be more in to gear needs to be judged negatively about that either).
That said, when it comes to diagnosing or disclosing what we are interested in....
We've all had off-gear conversations (I've had music discussions too and other things). But that is not what brings most of us here: we are enthusiastic about audio gear.
I've seen you engage in enough such discussions to know you are interested in audio gear far beyond the average "non-audiophile."
I just don't find any issue with admitting to being interested in the gear as well as the music.
It reminds me of when I visited a well off audiophile in new york. He had a classic Golden Eared subjectivist audiophile set up, huge expensive speakers, python thick audio cables on risers, ultra expensive amps and preamps, power conditioners, various tweaks around the system. I'm looking at this classic Absolute Sound Audiophile type set up and he declares "but really, for me it's All About The Music."
I think I was entirely justified in thinking "yeah. right."
He could make the exact case you could for your system. That every single choice he made in his system was serving the purpose of listening to the music. But the thing is, once you become fascinated with how audio gear affects the presentation - whether you are seeking accuracy or colorations you like - and if this becomes a hobby of sorts to keep interested in audio gear, trying various stuff over the years and/or participating in audio gear forums discussing the performance of audio gear...you really are interested in more than Just The Music. Seeking "accuracy" doesn't change this dynamic - it's still about being interested in how audio gear performance affects the music presentation, making your own preference - eg. a more accurate piece of gear vs perhaps a more colored piece of gear - and continuing to have a fascination with the gear, on audio gear forums like this.
And....
I hate film grain and other crap like that. In games and in movies. Especially when it has been added on purpose to be "artistic". Give me a clear picture like I see in the real world.
Why would anyone think making the on screen image worse was a good idea? Chromatic aberration? BS. Rain splashing on my screen? BS.
Robin L
Master Contributor
" . . . Yes, vinyl sales are at their “highest level” since then, but 1990 was far from a golden age for vinyl sales in the UK. In fact, in 1990, vinyl sales were rapidly going down the toilet.
Looking at the BPI’s own numbers from 1990, a total of 150.7 million albums were shipped in the UK that year. Vinyl, with “trade deliveries” (not sales) of 24.7 million, was, by some distance, the poor relation format. It made up just 16.4% of the total market. This was quite far behind the CD (50.9 million units, equalling 33.7% of the market). And miles behind the cassette (75.1 million units, equalling 49.8% of the market).
1990 was hardly a marquee year for vinyl sales. Those trade deliveries of 24.7 million were down from 37.9 million units in 1989 which were down from 50.2 million in 1988. For proper context, this was a vertiginous plummet from the 91.6 million units reported in 1975.
Vinyl’s market decommissioning accelerated rapidly after 1990, halving to 12.9 million units in 1991 and halving again to 6.7 million units in 1992.
Saying “vinyl sales are at their highest level since the format was properly in its death rattle phase” does not have the same heartwarming ring to it . . ."
More:
www.musicbusinessworldwide.com
Looking at the BPI’s own numbers from 1990, a total of 150.7 million albums were shipped in the UK that year. Vinyl, with “trade deliveries” (not sales) of 24.7 million, was, by some distance, the poor relation format. It made up just 16.4% of the total market. This was quite far behind the CD (50.9 million units, equalling 33.7% of the market). And miles behind the cassette (75.1 million units, equalling 49.8% of the market).
1990 was hardly a marquee year for vinyl sales. Those trade deliveries of 24.7 million were down from 37.9 million units in 1989 which were down from 50.2 million in 1988. For proper context, this was a vertiginous plummet from the 91.6 million units reported in 1975.
Vinyl’s market decommissioning accelerated rapidly after 1990, halving to 12.9 million units in 1991 and halving again to 6.7 million units in 1992.
Saying “vinyl sales are at their highest level since the format was properly in its death rattle phase” does not have the same heartwarming ring to it . . ."
More:
Putting the ‘vinyl revival’ in proper perspective - Music Business Worldwide
The following op/ed comes from long-time music industry journalist…
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