BUCKEYEAMPS Hypex NCx500 Amplifier 2channel Review

[Matias]

One thing i dont know you then have 240 Volt at 60 HZ ? WE here have only 240 Volt 50 HZ.


Not sure if any Amp is build for 240 Volt 60 HZ

It seems the 1200AS1/2 is build for 45til65 HZ and for 85 till 264 Volt but.1The maximum operating/usage mains voltage is 240Vac and the minimum operating/usage mains voltage is 100Vac.

AFAIK 50 or 60 Hz is irrelevant, amps usually work in both. Voltage is more restrictive. In case of Hypex SMPS the working range is quite generous, from very low 90V to very high 264V (switching between modes internally) and 47-63Hz.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Sorry not sure if this is only a class D problem but i read the Data shees of many classD Amps.

Products - Pascal Audio

www.pascal-audio.com

I have problems with the link you have to go to the s pro 2 datasheeed


For example here site 4

Power output with 230 Volt is 1000 Watt
With 120 Volt it is only 700 Watt.

Amp is rated with 2x500 Watt at 4 Ohm at 230 Volt but with 2x350 Volt at 4 Ohms with 120 Volts.

Amir did a Test of the Jeff Rowland 535 which uses this module and wonders why it dont has the power it should have.
It cant with 120 Volt .....

https://shop.icepoweraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/ICEpower1200AS1-2-Datasheet_1_7.pdf

side 11


Duration of power
burst at full power,
one channel driven
fin = 1 kHz, Po = 1200 W / 4 Ohm
230 Vac / 50 Hz 90 sec
120 Vac / 60 Hz 15 sec


The Time of an full power burst at 4 Ohm with 1200 Watt is 1,5 Minutes with 230 Volt against 15 seconds with 120 Volt.

The ouput Poweer of the 1200AS2 2 channel driven is 2x700 at 4 ohms both channels driven with 230 Volt but only 2x670 with 120 Volt.



There are also other behaviours , efficiency etc.

For medium and low power amps (say up to 250W) regardless of class, there probably is no issue. As you get into the kilowatt range, the 110V may be the reason why any class of amp suffers in the US:

• Given Power = current-squared multiplied by resistance; or voltage-squared divided by resistance; or current multiplied by voltage
• Assume 100% efficient amplifier
• US: 110V at 20A, max power = 2200W
• To get 2200W at speaker terminals into 8 Ohm, Voltage = 133V Current = 17A; To get 2200W into 4 Ohm, Voltage = 94V Current = 23A
• Europe 230 at 16A, max power = 3680W
• To get 3680W speaker terminals into 8 Ohm, Voltage = 171V Current = 22A; To get 3680W into 4 Ohm, Voltage = 121V Current = 30A

So European power amps can have 40% more power, and struggle less with rail voltages being close to or greater than the mains voltage

I know no-one runs power amps domestically with these sorts of powers, but as power increases, the US domestic mains looks to impose some potential limits. I don't think it's a Class D issue, but if there is a "class" issue, it may be SMPS constraints.

 

[peng]

Why is this specifically a Class D problem? Is it because the SMPS (common in Class D) develops lower rail voltages in the US? Or is it that, as we get progressively higher power, the 110V mains is a limit that doesn't occur where 230V is available?

I don't think it is specifically a class D problem. On all else being equal basis, higher power transmission requires higher voltage (for one thing, lower voltage implies higher current). For lower output devices, the differences will be less but when you get to the >1000 W 8 ohms power amps, one can imagine why 230 V input would have more significant advantages, such as in terms of efficiency, thermal related issues.

Even for class AB amps, that most ASR members understand who they work, 1000 W 8 ohms output requires 90 V rms, that's almost 128 V peak, and that's getting close to the 115 V 50 Hz system's limit), so yes, as you alluded to earlier, rail voltage could become a factor, probably more so if the design does not allow for this, in favor for standardization (just an arbitrary example). I am not knowledgeable enough in amp design especially class D and SMPS, so my comments are based on general and basic electrical principles only. It would be great if experts such as Bruno Putzeys would chime in and educate us on this.

 

[DS23MAN]

The secundaire powerrails voltages in an amp are not a problem because you can step up in voltage from the mains, transformer or smps. Main problem is the current in the primary side with high power amps. Large Touring companies like Claire Brothers in America ( Bruce Springsteen, M Jackson) use 240 volt amps and run 480V from the generators to transformers 480-240V.

 

[Mario Soldier]

For medium and low power amps (say up to 250W) regardless of class, there probably is no issue. As you get into the kilowatt range, the 110V may be the reason why any class of amp suffers in the US:

• Given Power = current-squared multiplied by resistance; or voltage-squared divided by resistance; or current multiplied by voltage
• Assume 100% efficient amplifier
• US: 110V at 20A, max power = 2200W
• To get 2200W at speaker terminals into 8 Ohm, Voltage = 133V Current = 17A; To get 2200W into 4 Ohm, Voltage = 94V Current = 23A
• Europe 230 at 16A, max power = 3680W
• To get 3680W speaker terminals into 8 Ohm, Voltage = 171V Current = 22A; To get 3680W into 4 Ohm, Voltage = 121V Current = 30A

So European power amps can have 40% more power, and struggle less with rail voltages being close to or greater than the mains voltage

I know no-one runs power amps domestically with these sorts of powers, but as power increases, the US domestic mains looks to impose some potential limits. I don't think it's a Class D issue, but if there is a "class" issue, it may be SMPS constraints.

Also little Amps are affected.

https://shop.icepoweraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/ICEpower125ASX2_Datasheet_2.0.pdf

2x120 Watt with 230 Volt but only 2x105 Watt with 120 Volt

and at 10% THD it are 2x150 against 2x130 Volt.

In BTL mode and 230 Volt you can have 450 Watt but only 370 with 115 Volt.

I have a 3x4mm² cable direkt from the fuse box with an 32 Amp Fuse ! so theoretically i can give 7200 Watt on this line.

But i connected two Master Slave power strips to this line so i can connect all the audio equipment to one power line.


The subwoofers are connected on other cables/fuses couse its an 2x18 with 2400 Watt an 2x10 with 600 Watt and an 1x12 with 1400 Watt.

We also can have here 400 Volt with 3 phases.I ran my lifting plattforms and compressors with this, and the welding machines.


In North America i would if possible connect my hifi equipment to 240 VOlt line.
You lose some benefits with only 120 Volt so Amirs Test are not 100% correct for european.

All icepower amps loses more or less power with only 120 Volt.

The Pascal S Pro2 is extreme 1000 Watt with 230 against 700 with 120 Volts.

 

[Mario Soldier]

AFAIK 50 or 60 Hz is irrelevant, amps usually work in both. Voltage is more restrictive. In case of Hypex SMPS the working range is quite generous, from very low 90V to very high 264V (switching between modes internally) and 47-63Hz.

Sorry than i cant understand why people are running their amps with 120 Volts.And in Japan the 100 Volt are a real problem in some cases.

Why Amir dont makes Tests with 240 Volts?

He wonders why Jeff Rowland 535 not outputs 2x500 Watts at 4 OHms, he only has to read the Pascal Datasheed .With 120 Volt absolut maximum is 2x350 Watt at 4 Ohms.

With 230 Volt in bridged mode it can be more than 1000 ,i think 1050 Watt at 4 OHms but only 700 at 120 Volt.This is an real difference i think.

 

[Matias]

The vast majority of US customers run their amps in 110V. It is very rare to find someone running 240V there as I run mine.

 

[goryu]

The vast majority of US customers run their amps in 110V. It is very rare to find someone running 240V there as I run mine.

With two 3 channel NCx500's coming soon (I hope!), I contemplated installing a 240V outlet and running the amps on that but decided it wasn't worth the hassle...I am in the US...

 

[ClaudeJ1]

dBW was tried in the 90s. I think even JA at Stereophile might have given it a go? But it's pretty much useless and counter-intuitive for amplifier power specs. With connected speakers, the manufacturers mess with their efficiency numbers and present grossly deceptive numbers, not referenced to their actual impedance.

I'm glad nobody in heir right mind uses dBW anymore.

Tried by whom exactly? Which company? Never seen a spec. to that effect. in the 60's and past the 90's as you suggest. Make grandiose, sweeping statements without proof and only certain people will believe you. I'm not one of them.

It's like the DIN specs on film speed vs ASA/ISO (1,000 is only 1 1/3 stops faster than 400). It's MORE intuitive when you reduce it all to simple addition of a log quantity presented as a simple addition to the speaker specification. It may be inaccurate but it comes closer to the truth than talking just Watts.

You can disagree with me if you like, but do so without name calling like "nobody in their right mind" BS, otherwise someone will think your are in your Left mind after reading your posts. Provide Data. I don't have to because I've never seen dbWatts anywhere, it's all Watts, and I do disagree with you without calling out names, other than quoting yours. I'm glad you are glad about being wrong, so far.............

 

[tmtomh]

Sorry than i cant understand why people are running their amps with 120 Volts.

Because that's the default voltage of the electricity in their country.

 

[Matias]

Look at Buckeye's 8 channel NC502MP. Uses 2 inlets for double amps still in 110V, no 240V option.

 

[Mario Soldier]

With two 3 channel NCx500's coming soon (I hope!), I contemplated installing a 240V outlet and running the amps on that but decided it wasn't worth the hassle...I am in the US...

The power difference with the Hypex Smps seems not to bee big at all in this case.

 

[Mario Soldier]

Because that's the default voltage of the electricity in their country.

Of course understand. But i had run for an long time 3 Pascal Spro2 Monos (1050 Watt at 4 OHms) , so in North America i think in this case i switched to 240 Volt losing 3x350 Watt is not few.......
I also has Problems with clipping....

 

[Mario Soldier]

Look at Buckeye's 8 channel NC502MP. Uses 2 inlets for double amps still in 110V, no 240V option.

Trinnov | 16 Channel Home Cinema Power Amplifier

The Amplitude16 is an extremely versatile 16-channel class-D power amplifier designed specifically for immersive home theaters

www.trinnov.com

The new TRinnov Altitude has also 2 inlets and also less maximal Power with 120 Volt 3200 against 2800 (120 Volt).


For europe one inlet should be enough one inlet gives you 3600 Watt.

Power Requirement: 2x 100/240V (auto-selecting

Dont understand the auto selecting why not 120/240 Volt


It seems the new Pascal L Pro2 has no Limits with 120 Volts

 

[DonH56]

Couple of comments, then back to lurking or ignoring this hot mess...

@amirm lives in the USA, where standard house wall voltage is 115 V, more or less. Houses may have 220/240 V lines for dryers, stoves, and perhaps an EV but normal house wiring in the USA is 115 V. That means the vast majority of products (audio or otherwise) are designed to use 115 V or so and include power cords suited to that (220 V plugs are different). Adding 240 V service to an existing room is often a complicated, expensive proposition (new lines run through walls and ceilings, new outlets installed, and new breakers added to the main service box -- if there is room!) It would be easier to test at 240 V or whatever if he lived in Europe. People forget the Internet is global but our homes are not (usually). Amir is doing a great service, at considerable expense in time, effort, and money, but "no good deed goes unpunished".

Switch-mode power supplies (SMPS) can be designed to boost voltage, reduce (buck), or go either way depending upon how they are designed. Thus they should be able to deliver full power from a wide range of voltage inputs, but if power is limited by the wall outlet the SMPS will likely regulate down to what the source can provide. It needs a kick of current to boost the voltage, and if the wall outlet cannot provide the extra kick, regulation will be lost. There could be other reasons, of course, like the SMPS itself limiting its output due to hitting thermal or current capacity limits. Etc.

I have only rarely seen dBW (note "B" and "W" are capitalized since they stand for individuals' names) spec'd for audio amplifiers, and those were pro amps (like PA amps for 80 V systems) years ago. A simple linear number is easier for people to understand since IME most folk have forgotten the few times they were exposed to logarithms in school. And as @restorer-john noted dBW is meaningless without specifying the load (speaker) impedance since most audio amps look like voltage sources and not power sources. IME dBW as a unit is used more, and makes more sense, for controlled-impedance environments like RF systems.

Now that I've done it myself (gone off-topic), I agree with the moderators that review threads are best left as reviews without wandering off into a myriad of other things like berating the reviewer, comparing to other products (perhaps make a "A vs. B" thread?), or debating industry standards and specifications.

Whatever...

 

[tmtomh]

Of course understand. But i had run for an long time 3 Pascal Spro2 Monos (1050 Watt at 4 OHms) , so in North America i think in this case i switched to 240 Volt losing 3x350 Watt is not few.......
I also has Problems with clipping....

Not everyone needs the extra power. And it's not always cost-effective to get a new 240V circuit wired into one's listening room compared to just spending a bit more on an amp with more power.

 

[Matias]

For the average Joe plugging a device on a receptacle I can understand.

But what I don't understand is how an AV enthusiast, building a HT from scratch and spending thousands in gear, racks in closets, high res screens and several Atmos speakers, to this user adapting a receptacle and wires to 240V is nothing!

Same for the high end audio enthusiast, spending tens of thousands in a dedicated listening room with acoustic treatment etc. Adding a 240V receptacle is peanuts.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Most of this is redundant from the review thread for the NCx500 monoblock. I realize many are just waiting on the OP, but he indicated he was not feeling well, so may be a while. Please be patient. If you have time, please read the monoblock review before piling on here. Thanks!

 

[peng]

Couple of comments, then back to lurking or ignoring this hot mess...

@amirm lives in the USA, where standard house wall voltage is 115 V, more or less. Houses may have 220/240 V lines for dryers, stoves, and perhaps an EV but normal house wiring in the USA is 115 V. That means the vast majority of products (audio or otherwise) are designed to use 115 V or so and include power cords suited to that (220 V plugs are different). It would be easier to test at 240 V or whatever if he lived in Europe. People forget the Internet is global but our homes are not (usually). Amir is doing a great service, at considerable expense in time, effort, and money, but "no good deed goes unpunished".

Switch-mode power supplies (SMPS) can be designed to boost voltage, reduce (buck), or go either way depending upon how they are designed. Thus they should be able to deliver full power from a wide range of voltage inputs, but if power is limited by the wall outlet the SMPS will likely regulate down to what the source can provide. It needs a kick of current to boost the voltage, and if the wall outlet cannot provide the extra kick, regulation will be lost. There could be other reasons, of course, like the SMPS itself limiting its output due to hitting thermal or current capacity limits. Etc.

I have only rarely seen dBW (note "B" and "W" are capitalized since they stand for individuals' names) spec'd for audio amplifiers, and those were pro amps (like PA amps for 80 V systems) years ago. A simple linear number is easier for people to understand since IME most folk have forgotten the few times they were exposed to logarithms in school. And as @restorer-john noted dBW is meaningless without specifying the load (speaker) impedance since most audio amps look like voltage sources and not power sources. IME dBW as a unit is used more, and makes more sense, for controlled-impedance environments like RF systems.

Now that I've done it myself (gone off-topic), I agree with the moderators that review threads are best left as reviews without wandering off into a myriad of other things like berating the reviewer, comparing to other products (perhaps make a "A vs. B" thread?), or debating industry standards and specifications.

Whatever...

I thought it's very much on topic because the discussion is still about the device tested and how the selected power supply input voltage would affect the amp's measured power ouput.

 

[peng]

For the average Joe plugging a device on a receptacle I can understand.

But what I don't understand is how an AV enthusiast, building a HT from scratch and spending thousands in gear, racks in closets, high res screens and several Atmos speakers, to this user adapting a receptacle and wires to 240V is nothing!

Same for the high end audio enthusiast, spending tens of thousands in a dedicated listening room with acoustic treatment etc. Adding a 240V receptacle is peanuts.

That is fine for someone who really needs to squeeze that last 10% (or less?) more out of those amps.

For a lot of people, if they want that little bit more, they might just buy a bigger amp. I am one of those people, so I would get a 500 W amp if I think I need 100 W or less. I really don't care if using 120 V means my 500 W amp plugged into to a 230 V outlet means the amp is only rated 400 W. So the NCx500 measured using the 120 V US standard is great. Those intend to plug the amp into 230 V already know they will get more than the measurements may indicate.