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Buchardt S400 Speaker Review

stevenswall

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I do also want to put things in perspective and note that the S400 roughly matches or beats every Harman group speaker so far by their own preference score... And IMO aesthetically looks better than the lot too.

That is weird now that you point it out. Do you think that would change with a high end Revel or JBL M2? Seems like Genelec beats them at their own game too, and after listening to the LSR series, and the 705, I wonder if $20,000 is enough to get good JBL speakers or if it's just a louder, (they would probably call it 'more dynamic') version of their 7 series without much bass extension relative to the size, good horizontal dispersion like everyone else, poor vertical like everyone else, and archaic cabinet design like everyone else, but with additional braces because they can afford more glue and wood with the price tag.

If Buchart and Genelec had the market and economies of scale JBL had, I imagine they'd be able to get prices even lower and further compete wkth Harman on the low end and high end.
 

ROOSKIE

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Like everyone else, I've been waiting for this one, particularly since my own reactions to the S400 seemed to differ substantially from owner reviews and professional reviews I've see. Was it just me and my old school measurements, or were people just hearing what they thought they should hear (or were getting paid to hear in the case of some reviewers). Aside from the hi-Q resonance, which I don't have enough resolution to see on my Praxis software, Amir's measurements and general reaction track mine. I haven't singled out the S400 by name in my other posts on various forums due to my (small) presence in the speaker industry. But now that these results are out, I have to say that the S400 did not only fall short given its price--it was also inferior to many speakers I've tested at the budget end of the market. The sound is certainly inoffensive, but it has a dark cast and a lack of lower treble detail that has to be due to the dip in the power response just above the crossover point, and perhaps to some coloration from the wave guide. it's another case of a failed wave guide implementation and tweeter selection. To put this in perspective, the pair of $80/pr DCM TP 160 monitors I had on hand for comparison had a much more open and detailed lower treble and measured better in the crossover region (although bass reach was of course more limited.) They were a little tipped up in the highs, but that took $$2 worth of resistors to fix. With the S400, I wouldn't know where to start.
Do you have any idea where to get a pair of the dcm tp 160 bookshelves? Any friends selling theirs? I see the floor stand version of the tp 160 is still available, do you know if your resistor mod would be correct for the floorstander?
 

stevenswall

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While it's always a risk to idolize a product, it doesn't surprise me:
  • They were a relative newcomer
  • The speakers have a sleek design
  • They got good impressions/reviews
  • The company posted more measurements than almost any hifi-oriented company,
  • These were mostly very good measurements, capturing the objective crowd too.
  • They're relatively small.
  • And at launch in the US, their sticker price was a bit cheaper than some alternatives too.

I would look at them like Kali audio, they are a bit cheaper than similar competitors, and though there are a couple flaws, they do deserve some credit, and I hope they continue improving.
 
OP
amirm

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Just nitpicking, by the way this is written, it is not clear that the price is for a pair..

Thank you for relentless hard work!
Thanks. :) Corrected.
 

wwenze

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Nice information, thanks for sharing. I was wondering how you could get directivity graph. I want to get directivity measurement on my speaker too but it seems pretty complicated and need to build some stuff for it.

I got another question. There are a lot of different measurements out there and they may not be the same. How do I know which one is correct? or maybe they are all correct but with different condition and slight error of hardwares? You got a different directivity graph compare to what amirm got, which one is more accurate? Thank you very much.

Real world is a sphere, directivity graph is just a circumference of the sphere. Two lines if counting both horizontal and vertical.

And we pretty much never listen at a point on that line anyway.

But that's exactly why we need these charts to tell is how big the sweet spot is. If there are issues, directivity chart will show it. And in this case the vertical chart does show it.
 

wwenze

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Well, this thread is certainly proof that people have some dramatically different ways of interpreting the same measurements...

I see a line dividing those considering reflections and resonances vs those who just consider straight-on.

Hard to say who is right. Reflections are very dependant on where u sit in the room after all.

Also, room EQ is using... EQ to get a flat response to counter the room's resonances, which last way longer. Hope we don't see too much hypocrisy in here, especially from IIR users.
 

LDKTA

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Wow... Very interesting. This is not what I expected at all.
 

Koeitje

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Definitely an SB Acoustics woofer. I have tested a few of their various models, including the line you're referencing. I imagine the drivers are not "off the shelf" but rather tweaked for the manufacturer's spec. But they are definitely SB made judging from the magnet, the spider and the cone (the spider looks like the same type used in their Satori line). I just got mine in for review and cracked open the case. Even the passive radiator looks like this SB made PR.

Not that any of this is bad. Just saying, it's pretty clear the woofers are SB. Not sure about the tweeter (didn't get that far; will later).

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I wasn't saying it was bad, my M106 also uses SB then. It's not really a secret loudspeaker manufacturers use OEMs.
 

maxxevv

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YouTube Whats INSIDE? Buchardt S400 + Measurements!


When I saw the interior and after the frequency response measurement, the CSD... :facepalm:

@amirm , the video pointed (about 3:30) out that the front panel of the speakers are actually slightly tilted off from the vertical.

I wonder if it has anything to do with how your measurements panned out? Since the vast majority of speakers' frontal panels sit perpendicular to the ground plane. And I suppose you would normally measure things along the axis of the tweeter, parallel to the ground plane too.
 

Koeitje

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The M105 actually has the best spinorama measurements of any Revel bookshelf I've seen beside the Gem2. The M106 has quite an obvious crossover dip due to the bigger woofer and the same high 2.3k crossover point.

The M126Be is good compromise. It still has a dip in the crossover region but is much, much smaller than the M106 due to the lower 1.7k crossover point while having much better bass than the M105.
Kevin Voecks, the designer, says that the M106 is still a better speaker. While I would take that with a grain of salt, I do think if you don't run subwoofers or like to play loud the M106 is probably the better choice.
 

wwenze

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LDKTA

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All my life I've been owning speakers whose drivers probably cost $50 total per side... I dunno, how much do the drivers in LSR305 cost?

"Sum of the parts" is all that matters. That said, for proportional cost increase I expect proportional "sum of the parts" increase... And that cabinet is definitely not part of it.

I hear you and I’m not sure. Agreed.
 

Ilkless

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Mads Buchardt said on another post that Buchardt has competencies and equipment in sophisticated scanning-based analysis. I wonder if these were deployed in trying to rationalise the enclosure design, and get it to be as cost-effective as possible below hearing thresholds, especially since much has been said about the cost of designing the waveguide.
 

Koeitje

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Mads Buchardt said on another post that Buchardt has competencies and equipment in sophisticated scanning-based analysis. I wonder if these were deployed in trying to rationalise the enclosure design, and get it to be as cost-effective as possible below hearing thresholds, especially since much has been said about the cost of designing the waveguide.
@amirm also prefers loudspeakers with a bit of a bass boost, so I would just look at the measurements and not his preference.
 

Dennis Murphy

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Do you have any idea where to get a pair of the dcm tp 160 bookshelves? Any friends selling theirs? I see the floor stand version of the tp 160 is still available, do you know if your resistor mod would be correct for the floorstander?
I sold my personal pair a couple of days ago, so I'm out of the game. I've never worked with the floorstander, so I really don't know whether it needs a resistor, or what the value would be. If you got a pair and they sounded a little bright, it would be worth trying a 20 ohm resistor across the tweeter terminals. Sorry I can't be of more help.
 

napilopez

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That is weird now that you point it out. Do you think that would change with a high end Revel or JBL M2? Seems like Genelec beats them at their own game too, and after listening to the LSR series, and the 705, I wonder if $20,000 is enough to get good JBL speakers or if it's just a louder, (they would probably call it 'more dynamic') version of their 7 series without much bass extension relative to the size, good horizontal dispersion like everyone else, poor vertical like everyone else, and archaic cabinet design like everyone else, but with additional braces because they can afford more glue and wood with the price tag.

If Buchart and Genelec had the market and economies of scale JBL had, I imagine they'd be able to get prices even lower and further compete wkth Harman on the low end and high end.

I mean, it's pretty simple really: My guess is Harman doesn't care about the preference score all that much. I would not be surprised if they don't even regularly calculate the score when designing speakers. The score is only an approximation for blind tests, which they do conduct, presumably more than anyone else.

There are principles from that score research theu take into account. The best speakers will have flat direct sound and smooth directivity -- not nessarily in the DI curves, but naturally a speaker with flat on axis and smooth PIR will score well.

But from Amir's measurements and others, it's become evident to me that Harman tends to prioritize smooth and wide horizontal directivity consistently for their home speakers even if sometimes at the expense of the vertical which shows up in the PIR as a crossover dip.

Look at the HDI-1600: it has a deep waveguide, which would normally mean narrow horizontal directivity, yet JBl seems to have gone out of it's way to give it wider horizontal directivity than you'd expect.

Same with the revel line: the Salon2 is not the flattest or smoothest speaker even among other revels, let alone some other brands. But what it does really well is very wide horizontal directivity courtesy of the shallow waveguide and sculpted baffle.

There are probably other things at play, like optimizations for specific frequencies, but this is the main quality I've noticed. It's hard to beat a good coaxial when it comes to vertical reflections and therefore smooth spinoramas, but clearly Harman as a group doesn't think the benefits outweigh the typical SPL and directivity limitations.
 
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napilopez

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@amirm , the video pointed (about 3:30) out that the front panel of the speakers are actually slightly tilted off from the vertical.

I wonder if it has anything to do with how your measurements panned out? Since the vast majority of speakers' frontal panels sit perpendicular to the ground plane. And I suppose you would normally measure things along the axis of the tweeter, parallel to the ground plane too.

I measured the tilt and if I remember correctly it was exactly 2 degrees, so I doubt it has very much to do with these results, despite the S400 being sensitive to the vertical sweetspot.

When I measured the S400 I did lift the back of the speaker slightly to 'remove' the incline though just in case.
 

maxxevv

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I measured the tilt and if I remember correctly it was exactly 2 degrees, so I doubt it has very much to do with these results, despite the S400 being sensitive to the vertical sweetspot.

When I measured the S400 I did lift the back of the speaker slightly to 'remove' the incline though just in case.

Which is possibly why yours look closer to Buchardt's own measurements than Amir's ?
 
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