Bi-amping with a Marantz Cinema 60

[Focus SE]

Let me start by saying what you are about to read could be full of ignorance on my part so please be patient.
Here are my two questions:
Using the equipment below, can I Bi-amp (not BI wire) my speakers using the equipment mentioned below? And if the answer is yes, then would it be recommended to wire to the AVR specified suggestions of using the surround rears via a pre-out (i am guessing) or to use an RCA splitter for the fronts?
I am attempting to vertically Bi-amp my speakers using an external amplifier.
I have provided links to the Marantz owners manual covering the my two areas of instructions.

in case this forum prohibiting me from posting direct links so add Marantz . Com to the front of these
/CINEMA60/NA/EN/DRDZSYcqhsmjdu.php (bi-amping speakers)

/CINEMA60/NA/EN/DRDZSYqibytsvl.php (connecting an external amp).

The instruction indicate using the surround rears to wire for bi-amping using the internal amplification of the Cinema 60. (not my goal) As far as I have been able to find it does not indicate the same procedure for using external amps using the pre-outs. I can only assume the procedure would be the same using the pre-out fronts and rear surround would be the same.
Now here comes the fun part and where my ignorance will really shine through. I correctly used the term external amplifier in the singular not multiple. The amplifier is a "Legacy Audio IV4 Ultra". it is a class D amplifier with four independent modules with each module having its own transformer providing separate amplification to each of the four channels. As I understand in layman's terms, it is 4 mono blocks in one chassis. While I am absolutely in love with the Legacy Products and how they sound when it comes to online manuals they are way sub par.
In their image gallery you can see the internal components.

add to this legacy audio . com
/products/view/i-v4-ultra#images

As you can see there are four separate modules internally
The difference between the IV4 and the IV4 Ultra is the number of independent internal amplification boards. The IV4 has two modules driving 4 channels and the Ultra has four modules driving four channels.
next is their lack luster owners manual that includes all of the ultra amplifiers in one manual. (I can only assume that because each processor/AVR is different they leave it up to the processors instructions on how to accomplish this.)

I think just adding a h t t p s and the two //: to the front of this brings you to the IV4 Ultra Manual at legacy audio.
d2digq31msfd9c.cloudfront.net/uploads/manuals/Legacy_Audio_2020_iV_Ultra_Manual_9_8_2020-compressed.pdf?mtime=20210302135955&focal=none

on page 11 of the owners manual named IV1-4 Ultra Amplifiers, are instruction on how to connect a seven channel system. What is pictured is an IV7. nowhere in this manual is the IV4 Ultra pictured showing the rear of the unit. but it is in fact a four channel out with four boards internally. I am not sure how to go about utilizing the capabilities of this Amplifier with this AVR. Ok third question, If I were to wire the Pre-outs using the front and rear surrounds one to each channel of the Amplifier and then wire to each of the the four binding posts on the back of the speaker, does anyone see any potential harm being caused?
Thanks for any thoughts on this!!!!

 

[NiagaraPete]

Don't waste your time or energy on this, you simply won't get an improvement with this product.

 

[Chrispy]

I'd just use a more powerful amp rather than passive bi-amping. Active bi-amping could be interesting perhaps.

 

[DonH56]

Bi-amping 101

This article provides a quick look at how bi-amplification works. The conventional scheme is to split the signal into two frequency bands before the power amplifiers that drive the speakers. The bass (LF) amp sees only LF signals and drives only the LF driver (woofer). The treble (HF) amp sees...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Focus SE]

I'd just use a more powerful amp rather than passive bi-amping. Active bi-amping could be interesting perhaps.

I am really dense because I don't know what I am not properly conveying. This amp produces 1000 watts into each of the four channels at 4 ohms. I can't believe its underpowered. The speakers are suggested to be pushed with a minimum of 350 to 700 and the amp and speakers are the same manufacturer. i guess it comes down to whether or not you believe bi amping works. I would that if it did and was noticeable it would make a difference and these and I would like to know.

 

[Chrispy]

I am really dense because I don't know what I am not properly conveying. This amp produces 1000 watts into each of the four channels at 4 ohms. I cant believe its under powered. The speakers are suggested to be pushed with a minimum of 350 to 700 and and the amp and speakers are the same manufacturing.

I seriously doubt your speakers have a minimum rating of 350 to 700 watts, sounds more like a maximum rating but I don't know what speakers you have or if you just like listening at deafening levels at long distance from the speaker? If Legacy Focus SE, from your screen name they indicate a "suggested" power range of up to 750W and with relatively high sensitivity speakers per their spec, would be likely something you don't particularly need....and even then a 375 watt to 750 watt level is only 3dB different.

Sending the same signal to separate terminals on a speaker is overblown IMO, i.e. passive bi-amping, whether or not your amps have separate power supplies, altho separate would be better I suppose. Particularly when the passive crossover network is still engaged, it is only so useful, particularly for the upper range where that's just more power than needed, and likely of minimal help on the low end in most circumstances.

 

[NiagaraPete]

1000 watts into each of the four channels at 4 ohms.

The specs I read were 200 watts at 6 ohms. That leads me to think it may not be stable at 4 ohms though I don’t know for sure.

 

[Focus SE]

I seriously doubt your speakers have a minimum rating of 350 to 700 watts, sounds more like a maximum rating but I don't know what speakers you have or if you just like listening at deafening levels at long distance from the speaker? If Legacy Focus SE, from your screen name they indicate a "suggested" power range of up to 750W and with relatively high sensitivity speakers per their spec, would be likely something you don't particularly need....and even then a 375 watt to 750 watt level is only 3dB different.

Sending the same signal to separate terminals on a speaker is overblown IMO, i.e. passive bi-amping, whether or not your amps have separate power supplies, altho separate would be better I suppose. Particularly when the passive crossover network is still engaged, it is only so useful, particularly for the upper range where that's just more power than needed, and likely of minimal help on the low end in most circumstances.

no objections, and plenty of agreement and one correction the Amplification suggestion is 30 to 750. not the 350 I thought.
No loud is not what I want. from everything I have read when dealing not just with these particular speakers but any high end unit, good clean strong power brings clarity to the sound. My previous amp pushing these was a marantz 7015 it was plenty loud on its own. is this amp over kill? No doubt. But I like what it did for the sound.

 

[Chrispy]

The specs I read were 200 watts at 6 ohms. That leads me to think it may not be stable at 4 ohms though I don’t know for sure.

I see these for the i4v ultra in the product description:

• Power Rating: 1000 watts per channel x 4 @ 4 ohms, all channels driven 610 watts per channel x 4 @ 8 ohms, all channels driven
• Peak Power: 1.2 kW peak power from any channel @ 4 Ohm/1kHz with less than 1% distortion

Which still leave a bit of wondering about the basis of the power rating.

 

[Focus SE]

The specs I read were 200 watts at 6 ohms. That leads me to think it may not be stable at 4 ohms though I don’t know for sure.

My guess is there is probably no one here with less knowledge on what any of this means than me. I am trying desperately trying to learn. Quite honestly, I truly don't even want to learn what it all means but what I want to do is get the most out of these as possible and I don't even know if it is possible and I am ok with that.



"MASTERS COLLECTION

i·V4 ULTRA​

Legacy's i·V4 ULTRA offers a dedicated module for each of its four channels. The amplifier approaches 80% efficiency while delivering 610 watts per channel into 8 ohms, 1,000 watts into 4 ohms."

Specifications Legacy’s i·V Series amplifiers are the most powerful home theater amplifiers to date. Featuring state of the art ICEedge® technology, the powerhouse delivers up to 1kW into 4 ohms at less than 0.005% distortion to each of its channels. The elegant amplifier operates at nearly 80% efficiency at rated output and delivers more than 600 watts into 8 ohms all channels driven while remaining stable into impedances as low as 2.7 ohms. The amplifier supports 12VDC triggered on/off and is available in a rack mount 8 channel version for Atmos® installations. Crystal clear sound is virtually noise free, without transformer hum. Power rating: 1,000 watts continuous per channel @ 4 ohms, all channels driven 610 watts continuous per channel @ 8 ohms, all channels driven Each channel meets the following specifications: 1.2kW @ 4 Ohm /1kHz with less than 1% distortion Dynamic Range 127 dB, A-weighted Voltage gain 25.8 dB Inputs Fully balanced XLR ,single-ended gold RCA Input Sensitivity 5.0 Vp @ 1200W/4 Ohm Input impedance 38 kOhm for both pin 2+ and pin3- Max peak output: 1250 Watts Voltage/Current: 98 Vp/ 38Ap Damping factor: 750 from 20 Hz to 1kHz Channel separation: 120 dB at 1kHz Weight: i·V1 22 lbs, i·V2 25 lbs, i·V3 26 lbs, i·V4 26.5 lbs

 

[Focus SE]

I see these for the i4v ultra in the product description:

• Power Rating: 1000 watts per channel x 4 @ 4 ohms, all channels driven 610 watts per channel x 4 @ 8 ohms, all channels driven
• Peak Power: 1.2 kW peak power from any channel @ 4 Ohm/1kHz with less than 1% distortion

Which still leave a bit of wondering about the basis of the power rating.

I certainly can't answer your question, but I am curious as to what it is that you're questioning and why. I'm Trying to learn here.

 

[Chrispy]

no objections, and plenty of agreement and one correction the Amplification suggestion is 30 to 750. not the 350 I thought.
No loud is not what I want. from everything I have read when dealing not just with these particular speakers but any high end unit, good clean strong power brings clarity to the sound. My previous amp pushing these was a marantz 7015 it was plenty loud on its own. is this amp over kill? No doubt. But I like what it did for the sound.

30W would still be quite loud with the specified speaker sensitivity, I find minimum power recommendations a bit silly in general as at 1W your speakers would be significantly loud (95dB with 2.83V, which is 1 watt at 8 ohm, 2 watts at 4 ohm, at one meter distance from the speaker). Power and spl are logarithmic so perhaps for peaks better to have more power than not, but if you're not actually using that power....it's just unused.

How much does that iV4 ultra cost? I see amp sensitivity spec of 5.0 V for max power, which is probably a stretch for your avr to provide, too (and does the amp provide for rca input?). Let alone how much wall juice you might need for spirited use of all four channels at high output (you have 230V/20A circuit as suggested?).

Did you go thru the bi-amping 101 link earlier? You might try this article as well https://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring

ps In your original post none of your links are formatted correctly so they can be easily clicked on....

 

[Chrispy]

I certainly can't answer your question, but I am curious as to what it is that you're questioning and why. I'm Trying to learn here.

They don't provide the thd level for that power, which is more the common way of doing it. For peak power they use 1% thd, but....

 

[NiagaraPete]

My guess is there is probably no one here with less knowledge on what any of this means than me. I am trying desperately trying to learn. Quite honestly, I truly don't even want to learn what it all means but what I want to do is get the most out of these as possible and I don't even know if it is possible and I am ok with that.



"MASTERS COLLECTION

i·V4 ULTRA​

Legacy's i·V4 ULTRA offers a dedicated module for each of its four channels. The amplifier approaches 80% efficiency while delivering 610 watts per channel into 8 ohms, 1,000 watts into 4 ohms."

Specifications Legacy’s i·V Series amplifiers are the most powerful home theater amplifiers to date. Featuring state of the art ICEedge® technology, the powerhouse delivers up to 1kW into 4 ohms at less than 0.005% distortion to each of its channels. The elegant amplifier operates at nearly 80% efficiency at rated output and delivers more than 600 watts into 8 ohms all channels driven while remaining stable into impedances as low as 2.7 ohms. The amplifier supports 12VDC triggered on/off and is available in a rack mount 8 channel version for Atmos® installations. Crystal clear sound is virtually noise free, without transformer hum. Power rating: 1,000 watts continuous per channel @ 4 ohms, all channels driven 610 watts continuous per channel @ 8 ohms, all channels driven Each channel meets the following specifications: 1.2kW @ 4 Ohm /1kHz with less than 1% distortion Dynamic Range 127 dB, A-weighted Voltage gain 25.8 dB Inputs Fully balanced XLR ,single-ended gold RCA Input Sensitivity 5.0 Vp @ 1200W/4 Ohm Input impedance 38 kOhm for both pin 2+ and pin3- Max peak output: 1250 Watts Voltage/Current: 98 Vp/ 38Ap Damping factor: 750 from 20 Hz to 1kHz Channel separation: 120 dB at 1kHz Weight: i·V1 22 lbs, i·V2 25 lbs, i·V3 26 lbs, i·V4 26.5 lbs

The title of your post says Cinema 60.

Edit I read the rest of your post.

But back to your original question. Passive but amping is a zero sum gain. Active bi mapping can be rewarding if your speakers are compatible and you have active crossovers with suitable amps.

 

[Focus SE]

30W would still be quite loud with the specified sensitivity, I find minimum power recommendations a bit silly in general as at 1W your speakers would be significantly loud (95dB with 2.83V, which is 1 watt at 8 ohm, 2 watts at 4 ohm, at one meter distance from the speaker). Power and spl are logarithmic so perhaps for peaks better to have more power than not, but if you're not actually using that power....it's just unused.

How much does that iV4 ultra cost? I see a sensitivity spec of 5.0 V for max power, which is probably a stretch for your avr to provide, too (and does the amp provide for rca input?). Let alone how much wall juice you might need for spirited use of all four channels at high output (you have 230V/20A circuit as suggested?).

Did you go thru the bi-amping 101 link earlier? You might try this article as well https://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring

ps In your original post none of your links are formatted correctly so they can be easily clicked on....

this is very helpful thank you
I agree with your wattage assessment of 30 being more than plenty. I did not buy the idea that a thousands of watts was necessary at minimum for clean sound. The marantz 7015 I originally was using was nice but I heard a hiss that has always bugged me. I don't gamble because I hate losing my hard-earned money. On this Amp I read reviews and bet the farm (for my budget level.) I bought a whole bunch of marketing bs acquiring this stuff, but I made the decision based on extensive listening at a friend of mines house. that had these speakers. it is exactly the sound I wanted. He was pushing his with Mcintosh amps. Those are way out of my league for sure, even used. I knew what I was getting was better than I ever thought I was capable of owning. I understand 90% of my listening is probably around a setting of maybe 30% (not db) on the volume dial. I have pushed it to crazy levels to see what it could do I could not get it to distort my ears. high tech equipment may indicate otherwise.
Back to wattage and having more than was needed. forget the 1K we both know that's excessive but the maybe 200 I was getting at 4ohms just seemed anemic compare to what I heard from my friends equipment. Head room was my goal along with Bi amping possibilities. which brings me to here.
Cost: At the Axpona show Their price list showed 8700. I bought mine used for less than half that. My logic was it brought me to comparable levels to my buddy for about a quarter of what he has in his amps. My intention was to bring my amp to his house and put the new Class D up against the old high-end class a and ab's to see if we can really hear the audible difference. even if we can I'm topped out and happy where I am. As for power Currently on 110 20 amp but in reading I can get away with a 40 amp breaker. and be pretty good if I go to the 230 I will need to buy a new power cord. and moving is a possibility in a few short years. I can pop the breaker in pretty quick.
thank you for the links I have not looked at them yet but i for sure will do so
Thank you for helping my feeble brain. I have always wanted a system like this to do what I love and that is listen. I need to get better at understanding specs but I am fortunate enough to have been able to jump right to my endgame speaker and am now working backwards to maximize their sound.
I'm new here so I wasn't sure links would work so I broke them up
thanks again!!!!

 

[Focus SE]

The title of your post says Cinema 60.

Edit I read the rest of your post.

But back to your original question. Passive but amping is a zero sum gain. Active bi mapping can be rewarding if your speakers are compatible and you have active crossovers with suitable amps.

Thanks, like i said there is no one here that knows less than me. honestly, I don't even know what an active crossover is (just looked it up and I didnt even know you were able to have separately powered crossovers. Additionally when you speak of passive bi-amping vs active I need to do research as well.

 

[Chrispy]

this is very helpful thank you
I agree with your wattage assessment of 30 being more than plenty. I did not buy the idea that a thousands of watts was necessary at minimum for clean sound. The marantz 7015 I originally was using was nice but I heard a hiss that has always bugged me. I don't gamble because I hate losing my hard-earned money. On this Amp I read reviews and bet the farm (for my budget level.) I bought a whole bunch of marketing bs acquiring this stuff, but I made the decision based on extensive listening at a friend of mines house. that had these speakers. it is exactly the sound I wanted. He was pushing his with Mcintosh amps. Those are way out of my league for sure, even used. I knew what I was getting was better than I ever thought I was capable of owning. I understand 90% of my listening is probably around a setting of maybe 30% (not db) on the volume dial. I have pushed it to crazy levels to see what it could do I could not get it to distort my ears. high tech equipment may indicate otherwise.
Back to wattage and having more than was needed. forget the 1K we both know that's excessive but the maybe 200 I was getting at 4ohms just seemed anemic compare to what I heard from my friends equipment. Head room was my goal along with Bi amping possibilities. which brings me to here.
Cost: At the Axpona show Their price list showed 8700. I bought mine used for less than half that. My logic was it brought me to comparable levels to my buddy for about a quarter of what he has in his amps. My intention was to bring my amp to his house and put the new Class D up against the old high-end class a and ab's to see if we can really hear the audible difference. even if we can I'm topped out and happy where I am. As for power Currently on 110 20 amp but in reading I can get away with a 40 amp breaker. and be pretty good if I go to the 230 I will need to buy a new power cord. and moving is a possibility in a few short years. I can pop the breaker in pretty quick.
thank you for the links I have not looked at them yet but i for sure will do so
Thank you for helping my feeble brain. I have always wanted a system like this to do what I love and that is listen. I need to get better at understanding specs but I am fortunate enough to have been able to jump right to my endgame speaker and am now working backwards to maximize their sound.
I'm new here so I wasn't sure links would work so I broke them up
thanks again!!!!

The hiss is somewhat related to the higher sensitivity of your speakers, some amps will have audible hiss, especially up close to the speaker, but if not audible from your seat isn't a particular issue. Your friends' room had likely a lot to do with it, more so than the amp. Your avr doesn't have a percentage, it is dB based so hard to know how you derive a percentage from that. Doing a level matched and/or blind comparison can be difficult, casual comparisons aren't worth a lot.

Having an amp capable of low impedance is a good thing with 4 ohm speakers for sure. Ideally you want an amp rated at 8 ohms to double wattage at 4 ohm, then double again from 4 to 2 ohm....but hard to come by, but if it has significant output (I'd think 300-400 wpc at 4 ohm would be more than sufficient). Off the top of my head maybe look at something like this https://www.buckeyeamp.com/shop/p/hypex-ncx500-amplifier-2-channel (and there is a member-blueline I think- review with measurements thread active now here on ASR but with a power supply issue for the one tested (and being replaced by Buckeye). Good value for the power.

 

[sam_adams]

Your question posted here was answered—more-or-less—hours ago here and here. You really aren't going to achieve significantly different results by passively bi-amping just the front L & R speakers. As I suggested in the other forum, use the Legacy amp to power the LCR speakers and the Marantz for the surrounds/heights.

 

[Chrispy]

The hiss is somewhat related to the higher sensitivity of your speakers, some amps will have audible hiss, especially up close to the speaker, but if not audible from your seat isn't a particular issue. Your friends' room had likely a lot to do with it, more so than the amp. Your avr doesn't have a percentage, it is dB based so hard to know how you derive a percentage from that. Doing a level matched and/or blind comparison can be difficult, casual comparisons aren't worth a lot.

Having an amp capable of low impedance is a good thing with 4 ohm speakers for sure. Ideally you want an amp rated at 8 ohms to double wattage at 4 ohm, then double again from 4 to 2 ohm....but hard to come by, but if it has significant output (I'd think 300-400 wpc at 4 ohm would be more than sufficient). Off the top of my head maybe look at something like this https://www.buckeyeamp.com/shop/p/hypex-ncx500-amplifier-2-channel (and there is a member-blueline I think- review with measurements thread active now here on ASR but with a power supply issue for the one tested (and being replaced by Buckeye). Good value for the power.

ps here's that thread I referred to about the test https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ier-2channel-review.46971/page-6#post-1677894

 

[Focus SE]

Your question posted here was answered—more-or-less—hours ago here and here. You really aren't going to achieve significantly different results by passively bi-amping just the front L & R speakers. As I suggested in the other forum, use the Legacy amp to power the LCR speakers and the Marantz for the surrounds/heights.

I appreciate that, but I'm trying to take in so much at once. I heard the answers but didn't understand why. I just have to keep digging until it makes sense in my head.