My exact sentiments!Adding a capacitor anywhere (either series or parallel) over speaker leads is only going to handicap one amplifier with respect to the other. It'll either act as an HPF (series- high value) or a LPF (parallel- low value).
EQ'ing out frequency response anomalies makes the entire "test" useless. So, he made the amplifiers sound the same, excludes the amplifiers with residual noise (all of them), handicaps the powerful ones and wonders why nobody can claim the prize in his stacked 2x12 correct ABX challenge?
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Benchmark AHB2 / Class D Purifi Eigentakt / Mark Levinson 333 - Listening impression & Conclusion
- Thread starter MasterApex
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A myth? For you maybe. Why do we have a burden to prove something is objective? What is wrong with including our subjective preferences in our purchases? Are you suggesting that rational choice implies a weighed, measured evaluation vs a subjective choice based on 'unconscious' expectation (idiot) is going to result in a purchase decision that fulfills an individuals preference curve (which can be measured).
I didn’t say anything about subjective vs. objective, and please don’t put words in my mouth. I suggested that subjective observations should be controlled for bias, both conscious and unconscious, if we are going to tell people they are real and relevant to others, and if we want to have confidence that our money is making a difference we will continue to enjoy in the future.
One thing I notice about those who eschew measured performance and controlled subjective testing: they continue to chase the Holy Grail, insisting they have finally found it and then moving on to the next one next month or next year. Then they tell the world that the new thing is finally the Holy Grail.
I was arguing that no matter how well we think we understand our expectations and how they bias our perceptions, we don’t. The difference may be great enough to persuade us anyway, but then why the reluctance to demonstrate that with the addition of bias controls?
But it’s your money.
Rick “not trusting authority” Denney
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Here is my subjective review…I can’t tell the difference between any amps and a receiver or a basic crown/emotiva/Craigslist amplifier
since I put all my gear in a hidden room I forget it’s there for a long time until something misbehaves…buy speakers, placement, maybe panels, and dsp…
since I put all my gear in a hidden room I forget it’s there for a long time until something misbehaves…buy speakers, placement, maybe panels, and dsp…
restorer-john
Master Contributor
You have a hidden room? Sounds creepy. How do you get to it? Through a trapdoor in the cupboard or do you remove floorboards underneath a rug in the loungeroom? What other stuff do you hide in your hidden room? People?
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You have a hidden room? Sounds creepy. How do you get to it? Through a trapdoor in the cupboard or do you remove floorboards underneath a rug in the loungeroom? What other stuff do you hide in your hidden room? People?
LOL it’s a nice closet with 3 racks off my main room…hidden from view!
I was really hoping it was accessed by one of those revolving bookcases.
jgillingham
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This latest article from Archimago is exactly what I wanted to see from amplifier reviews: real speaker loads to check if a flat frequency response in a resistive load translates to a flat frequency response being measured in the listening position. And it does not!
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2021/08/summer-musings-no-not-all-amplifiers.html
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2021/08/summer-musings-no-not-all-amplifiers.html
It also begs the question of how different cables might affect frequency response, especially as the reactive component of impedance varies among them. One thing I notice about some of the ultrahigh cost cables is they have very low inductance.
YES, CABLES!!!111ONES!!
That was a Nelson Pass First Watt SIT-2 with a whooping damping factor of 1.6!
phoenixdogfan
Major Contributor
Chains with manacles attached to the floor the eye bolts?You have a hidden room? Sounds creepy. How do you get to it? Through a trapdoor in the cupboard or do you remove floorboards underneath a rug in the loungeroom? What other stuff do you hide in your hidden room? People?
Fair enough. Maybe he used extreme examples to make his point. But the point is made and the difference is measurable and the amplitude of the difference is very significant. Next would be to measure more in between examples and check where the differences are still audible and where they cross a point where they don't matter anymore.
Still an excellent article and opens the way for many others.
tw99
Senior Member
The view on here typically is that all well designed amplifiers used within their constraints will sound the same. Archimago was just showing the opposite is true also.
The Pass Labs has a damping factor of 1.6. That doesn't qualify as well designed. This is what's Archimago article demonstrates. It also demonstrates the importance of using an amp 'within it's constraints'.
Conclusion 5: "While I can show and hear a difference between the Pass SIT-2 and my Hypex nCore quite easily, realize that within reasonable objective operating parameters, amps will sound alike! Likely, you'll find such "clean" amps will be indistinguishable in a volume-controlled blind test with actual music regardless of whether they're Class A or AB or D. Tube or solid-state. Lower or higher feedback".
So to me Archimago confirmed the general rule. Where do you see him demonstrating the opposite?
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Again this is a worst case scenario he measured. Now we need to see how in between amps measure too.
That's a nice open minded piece by archimago, as usual. He uses an extreme pairing to show the case, which I like, and explains that the pass labs unit is an edge case, but it gives you a grasp of the potential truth of lab measurements and points us to digging out damping factors for DUT.
In a great believer that audio component testing might get greater acceptance if at least one device below and above the DUT were included in the setup as that potentially unearths chained differences that device-device interactions highlight.
I know ncore hypex amps have more bass slam than my class ab amps, into my speakers, despite both having a flat measured FR in the lab.
In a great believer that audio component testing might get greater acceptance if at least one device below and above the DUT were included in the setup as that potentially unearths chained differences that device-device interactions highlight.
I know ncore hypex amps have more bass slam than my class ab amps, into my speakers, despite both having a flat measured FR in the lab.
