AVForums podcast: objective vs subjective debate

[amirm]

Good luck with that.

I guess I can't say i was not warned.

Got this from them:

"Your post in the thread AVForums Podcast: Philips OLED+908 TV preview + Avid Accent amplifier review + Hi-Fi & AV News was deleted. Reason: No need to post here again"

Did not have a remote idea that this is how they were. "No need to post here again???"

 

[amirm]

Good news is that they are missing the boat as far as how much people value objectivity in audio (lower better):

 

[ahofer]

I guess I can't say i was not warned.

Got this from them:

"Your post in the thread AVForums Podcast: Philips OLED+908 TV preview + Avid Accent amplifier review + Hi-Fi & AV News was deleted. Reason: No need to post here again"

Did not have a remote idea that this is how they were. "No need to post here again???"

"that's all you need to know".

I'm forming a visual image of that moderator.

 

[Beave]

The poster escksu there has a, well, remarkably similar user name to the poster escksu that used to post here. Remarkably similar.

 

[GXAlan]

I guess I can't say i was not warned.

Got this from them:

"Your post in the thread AVForums Podcast: Philips OLED+908 TV preview + Avid Accent amplifier review + Hi-Fi & AV News was deleted. Reason: No need to post here again"

Did not have a remote idea that this is how they were. "No need to post here again???"

That’s crazy!!

I am more subjectivist among the readers here, having tubes and vinyl LPs, but one thing in general that has been a wonderful nature of this forum is that as a whole (not individuals), there is an open discussion on both sides and the mods do a good job of stopping trolls and attacks and outright political talk, while still allowing dissenting opinions and arguments that have “Internet-levels of civility” that don’t cross into attacks, which is far greater laxity than you would allow in real-life at a on stage debate or conference…

It’s sad that AVforums is so narrow minded.

 

[BDWoody]

I guess I can't say i was not warned.

Got this from them:

"Your post in the thread AVForums Podcast: Philips OLED+908 TV preview + Avid Accent amplifier review + Hi-Fi & AV News was deleted. Reason: No need to post here again"

Did not have a remote idea that this is how they were. "No need to post here again???"

How pathetic, yet perfectly predictable was that?

You've got them all in such a tizzy. The stream of offensively defensive videos directly or indirectly aimed at you is example number one for those who say your little forum isn't making a difference.

 

[RayDunzl]

avforum, search for "objectiv" - 28 results

avforum, search for "subjectiv" - 61 results

Looks like neither is a topic of much conversation.

 

[MattHooper]

How did I know you were going to double down on this. OK, my point, again, was that the ongoing conflict as described (rationality<>superstition) is fueling over reactions in all sorts of places (including here on ASR). Nowhere did I label a specific group as one or the other. I don’t know how to spell it out any clearer for you. I‘m done now.

Dude. Chill. I'm not "doubling down" I'm simply asking a reasonable question that arises from your post.

Ok...so in replying to my musing about AVForum staff removing Amir's post, you weren't making a point that had anything to do with the actual subject of why Amir's post was removed. Thanks for clarifying, I guess...

 

[MattHooper]

You chill ”dude”. You asked the same question multiple times, which I’ve patiently answered multiple times, but you insist on pushing, and then pushing some more. You are now on my ignore list. Please be so kind to add me to yours.

Yeesh.

"Someone asked me to make sense of something I wrote on a forum....I'm going home!" (Don't forget to take your ball...)

 

[Chrispy]

avforums.com has always been disappointing....

 

[Axo1989]

Listening on they just said that the B&W makes the world's best speakers. Well, if they paid attention to research and measurements they would know that is not true.

They said "some of the best" and went on to say they could sound bad when matched with the wrong components (which may or may not be rubbish, of course). I'm not a fan personally (of B&W) but we tend to hear what we want to hear in arguments as well as in audio.

I'm guessing you may have gone in too hard too fast as you did when Darko interviewed your friend Cameron. We had a discussion about that back then and we disagree on the best approach. Now you may be right sticking to principles so don't take that as a criticism, it isn't. Moderators are also likely to bring the hammer down fast on new accounts, even if the newbie is storied and conveying good info. Not what I would have done.

As an aside I do think attributing this to a global culture war may be overblown (referring now to @Zenso's post, which appears to be gone now, no matter).

 

[MattHooper]

avforums.com has always been disappointing....

Are you speaking in general? Just curious because though I've spent most of my time on AVSForum, the british AVForum seemed to be quite good for testing projectors and home theater related displays and gear. I've paid less attention to the audio reviews, though seem to remember they did a good review of the DSpeaker Anti-Mode (with measurements/results/graphs) when I was researching.

 

[amirm]

They said "some of the best" and went on to say they could sound bad when matched with the wrong components (which may or may not be rubbish, of course).

No, he didn't say that. He said, "Bowers and Wilkins makes some of the best speakers on the plant." Why did you cut out the latter part which clearly implies it is the best there is as I noted?

And yes, it is rubbish to say that performance of a speaker depends on the amplifier. If you think there is a "maybe" there then you are not with the program either. B&W speakers suffer from directivity error. They have opted for better looks at the expense of audible performance. This causes it to get lower scores in multiple controlled listening tests. From J. AES paper, "

Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study"​

And this is the issue from a private Harman presentation:

There is just no away to blend that tiny tweeter relative to he large driver below it. It looks iconic. It sells a lot. But it is not remotely some of the best on the planet.

 

[amirm]

As an aside I do think attributing this to a global culture war may be overblown

Tell that to them. I didn't do a podcast and take a position against audio science and engineering in a clear, argumentative way. And took shots at what we do with SINAD, etc. My post was friendly in nature and aimed to correct the misstatements. There was no justification for deleting it and telling me to get lost. At least post a reason related to the topic at hand if you want this to be anything but personal.

 

[tmtomh]

"Reason for deletion: no need to post here again" - are you f***ing kidding me?

Not a good look for that moderator.

 

[Chrispy]

Are you speaking in general? Just curious because though I've spent most of my time on AVSForum, the british AVForum seemed to be quite good for testing projectors and home theater related displays and gear. I've paid less attention to the audio reviews, though seem to remember they did a good review of the DSpeaker Anti-Mode (with measurements/results/graphs) when I was researching.

IMHO avforums.com is a more subjective orientation than even avsforum.com.....

 

[tmtomh]

I joined AVSForum a few years ago but only started paying attention and participating earlier this year. So far I've found it a pretty friendly place, and while there's a lot of subjectivism there, I've found there to be plenty of members who don't hesitate to jump in with science-based correctives (about power cables, interconnects, room treatment, and so on).

In my experience it's miles friendlier and more open than the ridiculous.... whatever that was.. that the AVForum moderator just did to Amir.

 

[GXAlan]

AVSForum might not be the best place for 2 ch discussion, but it is one of THE most popular AV forums and it is pretty friendly so it attracts the full bell curve of home theater enthusiasts from magical subjectivist to hardcore objectivist.

The AVSForum members have done incredible work on par with @pkane and multitone.

They have done stuff like MSO

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/mso-multi-sub-optimizer-tutorial-video.3206281/

And Ratbuddysey

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/announcing-ratbuddyssey-a-tool-for-tweaking-audyssey-multeq-app-files.3006886/

And taken BassEQ (designer and database) to the next step

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/bass-eq-for-filtered-movies.2995212/

Not to mention that they rewrote the UI for the Monolith HTP-1 and rewrote the firmware to make it more stable.

The Dirac and Trinnov and Audyssey threads are rich with science based and experience based advise.


—-
Meanwhile, AVforum without the S is the one that apparently deletes any discussion of objectivity!

As much as tubes and vinyl are enjoyable, when it comes to movies, that has the most standardization in our hobby and you should value the most transparent electronics.

I will wait to see the Meyer Amie results to decide if transparent speakers are also true for movies — and what narrow directivity translates into… or if we are dealing with more circles of confusion.

 

[Axo1989]

No, he didn't say that. He said, "Bowers and Wilkins makes some of the best speakers on the plant." Why did you cut out the latter part which clearly implies it is the best there is as I noted?

I made the distinction between "the best" and "some of the best" because it is substantive. The best means number one. Some of the best means top ten, top 50, top 100, who knows? I omitted "on the planet" because it doesn't add semantic content. As far as we know, all loudspeakers are on the planet. That phrasing does add a gushing tone, but unless we were contemplating some smaller geographic distribution which there is no indication of, doesn't change the preceding: it certainly doesn't change "some of the" into "the" wrt "best".

Now I'm explaining because you asked me why, not because I agree with their contention. I don't. (I have the impression B&W may have made some good loudspeakers around the time or before I was born, but that doesn't apply to any I've actually heard.)

And yes, it is rubbish to say that performance of a speaker depends on the amplifier. If you think there is a "maybe" there then you are not with the program either.

I said "may or may not be" as a qualifier because an amplifier that can't deliver sufficient power into a difficult load will not give the best performance driving a speaker that presents same. I don't know (or care to check) if that's the case with recent B&W but the podcast was talking about treble iirc (my attention was drifting by then) which isn't the same issue.

B&W speakers suffer from directivity error. They have opted for better looks at the expense of audible performance. ...
There is just no away to blend that tiny tweeter relative to he large driver below it. It looks iconic. It sells a lot. But it is not remotely some of the best on the planet.

I think you are right. Weirdly for me the big midrange looks out of proportion on their recent speakers. Contrasting to the original Nautilus (Dickie's design) where the four drivers and their housings are well proportioned to my eye.

 

[tmtomh]

I made the distinction between "the best" and "some of the best" because it is substantive. The best means number one. Some of the best means top ten, top 50, top 100, who knows? I omitted "on the planet" because it doesn't add semantic content. As far as we know, all loudspeakers are on the planet. That phrasing does add a gushing tone, but unless we were contemplating some smaller geographic distribution which there is no indication of, doesn't change the preceding: it certainly doesn't change "some of the" into "the" wrt "best".

Adding a gushing tone is precisely an example of adding semantic content. "Some of the best on the planet" has idiomatic meaning beyond the sum of its linguistic parts. It creates an added and quite specific emphasis on the object being superlative and clearly means "the best" in the sense of "top tier." True, "some of the best on the planet" does not mean the single very best compared to everything else out there - but it does means they are in a small class of items and that class is indeed the single best class compared to all others out there.