Avantone CLA-10 (Yamaha NS-10M Clone) Review

[JayGilb]

Any speaker can be used for an accurate mixing monitor if the mix engineer learns how it sounds using reference mixes and many hours of use.

 

[usersky]

Any speaker can be used for an accurate mixing monitor if the mix engineer learns how it sounds using reference mixes and many hours of use.

Yeah, but why?

 

[holdingpants01]

Yeah, but why?

learning to work on accurate (but that's debatable when measured in room) monitor takes as much time, it's only faster when switching from say Neumann to Genelec, or changing smaller to bigger model. NS10 popularity was more about using the same tools as successful people than it's sound, then it became more about them being the standard equipment that always sounded familiar (in a bad way, but still).

 

[AudioSceptic]

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of the Avantone CLA-10 which is made to be a clone of the famous Yamaha NS-10A monitor. I purchased it from Amazon and costs US $699 (a pair).
View attachment 303439
We have the iconic paper white woofer. Speaker is commonly shown the horizontal configuration as you see but I tested it vertically as you see below. No port or anything exciting in the back:
View attachment 303440

The claim to fame of the original Yamaha NS-10m was that it would allow mix/mastering engineers to create pop/rock music that "translated" well to whatever people were using to listen to music. A bit of its history and anechoic measurements are documented in this excellent paper:
THE YAMAHA NS10M: TWENTY YEARS A REFERENCE MONITOR. WHY?
Philip R Newell Consultant,
Moaña, Spain Keith R Holland ISVR, University of Southampton, UK
Julius P Newell Independent Audio Systems Engineer, UK

Here are their conclusions:

6. SUMMARY
From the investigations presented, and from experiences in the use of the NS10M, it would appear that the following statements can be made.
•The free-field frequency response of the NS10M gives rise to a response in typical use which has been recognised by many recording personnel as being what they need for pop / rock music mixing. The principal characteristics are the raised mid-range, the gentle top-end rolloff, and the very fast low-frequency decay; the latter is aided by the 12dB / octave roll-off of the sealed-box cabinet.
•The time response exhibits a better than average step function response, which implies good reproduction of transients. Many people speak of the "rock and roll punch" of the NS10M. •The distortion characteristics are also better than average for a loudspeaker of such size.
•The output SPL is adequate for close-field studio monitoring with adequate reliability.
•In many of these characteristics, the NS10M mimics the response of many good larger monitor systems in well-controlled rooms. They are hence recognisable to many recording personnel in terms of their overall response.
•They are tools to achieve a well-balanced mix. It is notable how many of the people who use them in studios do not use them for home listening.

I tried to find a real NS-10m on various auction sites but all I found were speakers in horrible shape and still asking what this Avantone more or less costs. Testing the old samples would not give us data on how they performed when new so made no sense to risk buying them.

As noted, I chose to test the CLA-10 vertically as it was easier to set the reference point on Klippel NFS. Otherwise I would have to shift the speaker to the right, making for an asymmetrical situation. Fortunately this doesn't impact on-axis response and you can just transpose vertical measurements for horizontal and get that data as well (can't do that with preference score but that is not a big thing here).

Tweeter center was the reference axis although it did not make much difference when I lowered it.

Avantone CLA-10 Speaker Measurements
Let's start with the anechoic measurements from the Newell, et. al. paper of the Yamaha NS-10M:
View attachment 303441

We see that it has a hugely over boosted midrange to low treble. We get that in CLA-10 but unfortunately here, the boosted response goes way higher:
View attachment 303442

So assuming the paper measurements are correct, then the CLA-10 clearly is not its clone. That aside, there is a narrow but nasty resonance around 3500 Hz. We have a large directivity error that would have been in the Yamaha as well. Overall, this is a horribly bad response by any measure.

Strangely that resonance did not show up in near-field measurements indicating it likely is not in the drivers:
View attachment 303445

Paper talks about low distortion but they measured it at 90 dBSPL so not matching mine. But we can interpolate and kind of see what they are saying:
View attachment 303443
View attachment 303444

We really need relative distortion measurements as that includes the variations in response. Absolute levels as they show is not instructive unless speakers being compared all have flat measurements (which they do not). Using our relative measurements, we see broad distortions where our hearing is most sensitive at 96 dBSPL.

We see the strong directivity error impacting our early window reflection sum:

View attachment 303446
Breaking that down we see that using the speaker as tested, i.e. vertically, is much more optimal:

View attachment 303447

As noted, the pink curve which is the sound being sent to you, going past and reflecting from the wall behind you (if it is close), makes the tweeter even hotter so absorption there would help.

If you placed the speaker on its side the right graph becomes your horizontal axis, emphasizing that massive error. You better absorb the heck out of your sidewalls then (assuming they are close to the speakers).

Here is our predicted in-room response:
View attachment 303475

We see the effect of directivity error in our 3-D near-field plot:
View attachment 303448
Level of reflections in the room will change the tonality of this speaker fair bit.

Our beamwidth and directivity tell the story we already know:
View attachment 303449

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The paper talks about fast settling response of the Yamaha NS-10 but they use wildly different timing scale so we can't compare that to my measurements (they can do that because they have an anechoic chamber). Here is the data anyway:
View attachment 303452
View attachment 303453

So we don't just have boosted frequencies but lots of resonances within. I think this is the worse waterfall measurement I have seen of any speaker I have tested.

The paper also has a step response and here, matching to our measurements is excellent:
View attachment 303454

Rating impedance of the original I think is 8 ohm and we are kind of there with CLA-10:
View attachment 303455

Avantone Pro CLA-10 Speaker Listening Tests
I was listening to my everyday music when I started to test the CLA-10. When I hit play on the same track I was listening to using my headphones, I thought something was seriously wrong as all I was hearing was distorted high frequencies. I went back to my standard test tracks and there, the sound was somewhat better but as you can imagine, had heavy treble emphasis. Not only that, it sounded grungy and bad. I dialed in an inverse filter for the 3450 Hz resonance and that cleaned things up a bit. From there, I built a five filter correction but the speaker still sounded quite lousy.

I then took the inverse approach of boosting bass. That was more successful but still, what I was hearing was just not great. The sound and experience was bad that I just gave up on playing with it more. The idea here is not to make this a hi-fi speaker anyway as the use is for mastering and everyone says it is not good for enjoyment. On that front, they are right.

I did experiment with putting in a shelving filter to bring the response close to the NS-10m and that was definitely an improvement. So I don't think the Yamaha was nearly as bad as CLA-10 is. I like to meet the mastering engineering who was involved the design of CLA-10 to understand how he thinks these speakers are equivalent.

Discussion and Conclusions
The data here seems clear: in attempting to clone a rather broken speaker, Avantone has made an even more broken speaker. It fails not only in mimicking the frequency response of the NS-10M but seems to also introduce resonances that may not have been in the original. Any attempt like this should have been done as you see above: with detailed anechoic measurements to make sure the design is a true clone of the original. Using what is thought to be original parts and tuning based on someone's ear is just not the way to do it.

The whole idea of a mix that "translates well" is a problematic thing. Yeh, in the 1970s and 1980s we listened to a lot of music in cars with stock sound systems and clock radios and such at home. Those systems were likely to have had midrange/lower treble emphasis. That all changed with advent of iPods and people listening to headphones/IEMs that have deep bass response. So likely what translated to old casual audio systems of the past, will not work in this era. Why there is still interest in buying such a speaker is beyond me.

I know I may be making a lot of enemies by saying this but maybe this speaker was compensating for poor listening skills of people using them. That is, unless there was so much exaggeration in large portion of the frequency response, they couldn't tell that they had boosted them too much in the mix/mastering.

The massive directivity error just adds to the problem. No wonder folks were covering all the walls in their studios. They couldn't stand the sound otherwise!

If I were to listen to this speaker to tune a mix, I would have to turn so much of the gain from upper midrange to treble. It is so grating otherwise. The mix then would sound absolutely dull on any half proper audio system. The industry needs to ditch this concept and adopt fully neutral audio systems used in mixing/mastering systems. Then we can adopt the same and be on the same wavelength.

Anyway, I am out $750 including tax so hopefully you found this analysis and measurements of value!

Needless to say, I can't recommend the Avantone CLA-10 monitor.

Specifications​

• SYSTEM TYPE: Passive - full-range two-way stereo pair
• FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 60Hz-20,000Hz (Accessible musical range)
• POWER CAPACITY: Program – 60W, Maximum – 120W
• SENSITIVITY: 90dB SPL (1W, 1m on axis)
• COMPONENTS:
• Low Frequency: AV10-MLF 18cm cone
• High Frequency: AV10-MHF 3.5cm soft dome
• CABINET: 10.4 liter sealed design, 18mm MDF with real wood veneer
• CABINET DIMENSIONS: 381.5mm x 215mm x197.5mm ( 15”x 8 ½”x 7- ¾ ” )
• CABINET WEIGHT: 6.3kg / 13.9 Lbs (each)
• WARRANTY: 5 Year Limited Warranty to original purchaser

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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome. Click here if you have some audio gear you want me to test.

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Most informative, but I have to ask: why would you buy such a thing?

 

[sarumbear]

Yeah, but why?

Because they have the same reference wherever they go to record. A reference does not have to have high quality, all it needs is a repeatability of performance.

 

[Grotti]

locally (EU) I don't see any ns10 currently for sale, but I see a pair of ns615 for ~$300

On www.kleinanzeigen.de there are 9 pairs available in Germany as of this writing. And one pair of 615. Just saying....

 

[Geert]

I never understood this point: why not use a monitor with a right tonal balance in the first place instead of mixing low mids and mids on a "broken speaker" like the NS 10 and than going back to another speaker to adjust lows and highs?

Because you're forgetting the context again. The NS10 popularity dates from more than 30 years back, where the main room speakers did not have the quality of today's speakers and there were not that many options for near field listening. On top of that, as a closed speaker the NS10 has mid range qualities a lot of other speakers couldn't deliver.

 

[holdingpants01]

On www.kleinanzeigen.de there are 9 pairs available in Germany as of this writing. And one pair of 615. Just saying....

there are actually two pairs of NS615 and both for around 250€, all NS10 pairs are for upwards of 600€, so this confirms what I said that if you can't find a pair of NS10 for a good price, NS615 are a cheaper alternative at almost a third of a cost

 

[dfuller]

For a start, I have never seen this Avantone in a commercial studio.

I have. Not common, but I have. They sound nothing like the originals I've heard. Way, way brighter.

 

[fineMen]

I guess if you like nothing Bob Clearmountain has produced then you comments may be true.. but he insisted on NS10s to check the quality of his productions ...

That is a myth ventilated every other day. Many sound engineers are as mislead as consumers by preconceptions, fixation on brands and well, misunderstood technological wonders which are mostly just wishful thinking. ( e/g banana fibre cone )

It was a high quality 'mini' speaker made for Japan (and likely their musical tastes...) in their NS (Natural Sound) speaker range to be used with the emerging smaller footprint home/shelf type systems ... not an enjoyable speaker.

Thing is, many people don't care that much about the correct stereo setup, themselves included sitting 'right in the middle' all the time, not moving the ears a bit ... . Because it would be ... better won't say.

So, if that is assumed to be the reality for most, what is the direct or anechoic sound about? If someone would listen to the family's stereo lying on the sofa 50° off the center position, one ear halfway directed at a pillow ... you kow what I mean. There would be just the reverberant soundfield, that in this not too rare case would tonally resemble the intended direct field ;-)

People want the sound to be clear, that's to be granted, not so much distortion, well defined articulation, and enough bass to not feel falling short, but what else? Most will find the fun in music, not in the stereo's excellence! We here are a bit not that normal in this regard.

 

[DSJR]

I never understood this point: why not use a monitor with a right tonal balance in the first place instead of mixing low mids and mids on a "broken speaker" like the NS 10 and than going back to another speaker to adjust lows and highs?

The NS10 is NOT a 'broken speaker' - at least, not in the original domestic context either side of a stack system and sat on a bookshelf!!! Just 'cos they don't suit the current 'Klippel friendly' boxes raved about here doesn't mean they can't be used as a production/general reference tool. I mean, look at the LS3/5A, a 'to me' ghastly shrill tizz box, yet they fulfilled their original OB-van role superbly and as a small general 'sound box' in broadcast studios until replaced by the (almost as bad to me) Dynaudio BM5A and similar models...

Response aside, the sound is very 'clean and clear' if not in the right proportion in free space and as said earlier, perched on top of a meter bridge as almost all pro used ones are/were, the mid bass fleshes out a bit - I was told this by Billy Woodman I now recall when discussing the ATC 20's when they first became known 'domestically' in the early 90's and many smaller monitors were kind of balanced this way if you check the speaker measurements at the end of the Soton Uni article referenced earlier here. Even the Harbeth designed HHB Circle models were similarly balanced if you look!

 

[Postlan]

In the 80’s and 90’s, studio engineers were occasionally seen hanging tissue layers in front of the NS10M tweeter. Judging by this measurement, it seems like a reasonable thing to do (though I don't know how close this speaker is to the original).

 

[PuX]

Anyway, I am out $750 including tax so hopefully you found this analysis and measurements of value!

you'll send them back or sell them, right?

$750 is kind of a lot to spend just to satisfy curiosity

 

[Doenerkunde]

The OEM driver manufacturer MISCO (Minneapolis Speaker Company) offers a faithful reproduction of the NS10 woofer to replace faulty ones and keep existing NS10s in working condition.

They offer measurements to compare their model to „not faithful ones“ and I think the graph below shows the Avantone CLA-10 as „brand x“ compared to stock NS10s and NS10s with the MISCO woofer.

Pretty interesting. You can see that the Avantone woofer is not faithful, because it lacks the seem split that is visible in the original. The flat membrane of the original was glued to get in into a conical shape. Misco also shows some comparisons with modal analysis:

MS10-W Technical Brief | MISCO Speakers

An in-depth examination of the MS10-W by Bold North Audio, the best replacement model of the iconic Yamaha NS-10™ ever made.

www.miscospeakers.com

 

[composer]

Thank you for demistifying the mystic magic aura surrounding NS-10.

Still now I hear a lot of claims from people who tried them and magnify their mystic value.
IMHO That's pure placebo, conditioned by the hype and fashion around those.

I still keep on wondering how a totally unbalanced monitor should translate well in a mix universally. Maybe I'm dull but to me it's utterly bullshit.

People spend correctly money for acoustic treatment in order to achieve as neutral sounding as possible room, but then "hey, fill up this room with treble heavy speakers". The heck...

That NS-10 aura is even worse than the CHORD DAVE

 

[Schollaudio]

With a different tweeter and crossover they might be a decent speaker.

 

[Paweł L]

Definitely designed for hearing impaired producer

 

[Geert]

I still keep on wondering how a totally unbalanced monitor should translate well in a mix universally. Maybe I'm dull but to me it's utterly bullshit.

So you didn't read anything of what's been said here?

 

[robwpdx]

I don't have professional music recording friends in Seattle.

There are usually professional commercial recording studios with speaker collections like https://www.musicindustryhowto.com/recording-studios-in-seattle/. Radio stations may have speaker collections, years ago our public radio station had a good size Neve desk. Stations do in-house recording and live broadcasts. KEXP is a stellar example. It would not be surprising for Benaroya Hall/the Seattle Symphony to have a control room, or somewhere in the music department or halls of UW.

From musicians, or recording studios, there will be a network. There may be an opportunity to borrow speakers in Seattle. Maybe even those elusive ATCs. I would love to see tests of classic microphone preamps too, swept across frequency, level, and gain. One would assume that people do that to build software emulation plugins.

There are some good articles on this thread, great work ASR

 

[oscar_dziki]

Sorry for your loss.