Avantone CLA-10 (Yamaha NS-10M Clone) Review

[Billy Budapest]

I mean who would really notice a crappy clone if there's next to no chance to hear the original?

I heard the original plenty of times in the early 90’s in the radio station I worked at. “Sucked” is an understatement. However, the Technics SP-10’s we used were marvelous.

 

[Travis]

I then took the inverse approach of boosting bass. That was more successful but still, what I was hearing was just not great. The sound and experience was bad that I just gave up on playing with it more. The idea here is not to make this a hi-fi speaker anyway as the use is for mastering and everyone says it is not good for enjoyment. On that front, they are right.

What was being produced by that knockoff didn't look close to what a NS-10M produced (as you pointed out, it has been well studied and well measured), but for all I know it was a perfect mirror image of the on-axis FR of an NS-10M.

As someone else already pointed out, it was never used for mastering (or at least that anyone would ever admit). It was used to augment the mixing process with a studior's main monitors. It was so intriguing as to why it produced such great mixing end results that it led to the article you quoted from.

Others also looked at it from a scientific perspective to figure out why, in a studio environment, near field, sitting on a meter bridge, results in some being able to fine tune their mixes that it led to an AES article where they measured it at the listening position of someone sitting at a console - guess what?

"[N]ewells/Holland paper was the first analysis of the NS10, Andy Munro presented a paper to the Audio Engineering Society in the early '90s, in which he examined in passing the acoustic effects on the NS10 of placing it on the meter bridge of a big desk. The paper showed that the NS10's frequency response flattens in such circumstances — reflection from the desk reinforces output in the upper bass and low-mid region."

If people want to know an accurate history of how that speaker came about, how it ended up in studios, what they think is the preference of those who swore by them (lower distortion than what was used near-field at the time (Aurotone cubes, which are in all of those same photos with speakers with the white cones), then they should take a deep dive into this article where they lay it out (with measurements, step responses and the whole shabang).

The Yamaha NS10 Story

Love or hate the Yamaha NS10, this unassuming little speaker has found a place in the studios of many of the world's top producers. We trace its history, and investigate why a monitor whose sound has been described as "horrible" became an industry standard.

www.soundonsound.com

Here are some quotes to show that they speak the same language as we do here so for those who have an interest in taking a deeper dive it won't be a waste of time filled with subjective mumbo jumbo:

"Part of the NS10's problem is that the general understanding of how we respond to monitors is coloured by their apparent technical simplicity and by manufacturers, sometimes innocently and sometimes intentionally, encouraging this phenomenon. In reality, the psychoacoustics of the perception of music reproduced by loudspeakers, and how this relates to their technical performance and specification, is an immensely complex subject that doesn't take kindly to simplification by marketing departments. By the time it lands on a sales brochure, a frequency-response curve, for example, is typically meaningless in terms of providing any information that's useful to an end user — even if it was measured competently and had any technical value in the first place. But then, in some respects, it can suit a manufacturer of monitors if their customers don't know too much."

"To understand the history you first have to appreciate its context. The late '70s, when NS10s began to appear perched on meter bridges worldwide, was a transitional time in music recording. The divide between the engineer and the artist was blurring, as if the glass between the control room and the studio was melting. Desks were getting bigger as track count increased on tape. Outboard gear, driven by the possibilities offered by the mix and editing potential of that higher track count, became more sophisticated and ambitious, and the possibilities for recording engineers to become more creatively involved in the process of producing a record multiplied."

"But in what respect was the NS10 so well suited to the nearfield monitor role? What was it that the unknown Tokyo engineer, Scheniman, Clearmountain, Davies, Jopson et al, heard to convince them that the NS10 was worth overturning their previous monitoring practices (predominantly Aurotones on the desk for AM radio/TV mixes, and big horn-loaded main monitors in the wall in front of the desk) for? If the NS10 had truly been, 'the worst speaker Bob Clearmountain could find' it wouldn't still be with us, which means it must have had — and must still have — something special."

The article goes on to provide other possible explanations, based on measurements, as to why those who used it (and continue to use them to this day) might have a preference, including low distortion, the FR at the console, etc.

Surprised that no one has thought up the tissue paper over the tweeters to dull the brightness yet. There is an article, based in engineering science with measurements on that too http://www.bobhodas.com/examining-the-yamaha-ns-10m.php.

What I would really like to see is tests and review on the Aurotones, original or the new 5c, still used in studios around the world to augment mixing.

 

[Travis]

I mean who would really notice a crappy clone if there's next to no chance to hear the original?

Well they are out there, always some for sale on Reverb, ebay, and all the usual places, they go from about $150 a pair to $1,500 pr depending on age, condition, specific version, and location.

It's interesting to me, a lot of the same comments are made about the Harbeth BBC Monitors ($10K a pair), sterile, revealing, no real love, but in studios all across the UK. I guess it was natural for people to assume that if it's used in a studio it most be great for the home. These are tools, like a good pair of cans, the full range far field monitors, you just use what helps you get the right mix in the end.

 

[Travis]

I often think it sad that so much great music from the past was mastered on badly tuned speakers.

Don't be too sad, none of it was mastered with the original NS-10, they were used to aid in mixing.

But you shouldn't let the fact that a lot of great music was mixed using speakers like the NS-10M get you down either, because what does it matter? If you end up
with a great mix does it matter if they were done on old Aurotones, or the "newer" NS-10s, or the now STOA ATCs? The end result is the same, a great-sounding mix
it doesn't matter what was used. The opposite is certainly true, the person doing the mixing can have the best-tuned/performing speakers made, and come up with
a horrible mix. Mixing is part art, part science, mostly art, and in the ear of the beholder, mixing artist. It seems to me that the top tier seems to
have consistently good results, top awards, reviews, but are not immune from having an occasional dog. However, there doesn't seem to be any consistency in
the equipment they use, speakers, or anything else (other than their studio, but sometimes not even that).

 

[holdingpants01]

I never liked the originals and once again Avantone made a clone that's even worse. It's like with their Mixcubes, the original Auratones sounds much better and are actually useful. Scratch that, this company is not making clones, they're making caricatures.
BTW if you can't find NS-10 for good price, look for NS-615 instead. They're the same speakers just without the mirrored tweeter position but in nice wood veneer. They usually cost less than half price of NS-10s

 

[Travis]

Contrary to what the 'excellent paper' asserts, it was a huge seller in Japan for 15+ years and continued to be sold right up until the early 1990s in other parts of the world as well. It was never intended to be sold outside Japan until travellers started bringing them 'home' and studio engineers 'discovered' them. An accidental monitor if ever there was one. But better than the Horrortone.

The Horrotones, ah yes, speaking my language. You see those sitting on console bridges in as many, if not more, studio photos, even now.

Would like to see a review/testing of their new 5C. Whatever you do, don't let it slip that Horrortones were used to help in the mixing
of a significant portion of their beloved music, including such little know gems like Thriller - they might melt down.

This is the "circle of confusion" that Dr. Toole mentions in nearly all of his presentations, don't get caught up in what the "they" used to record, mix, master, you favorite recordings. It matters not in how well your home system is capeable of accurate reproduction. No one would have those Auratone's in their home system (at least I hope not), the fact that they allow some to come up with a better mix doesn't translate to anything we are interested in - subjectively good sound at home based on objective data.

 

[MarkS]

I owned a pair of these Yamaha. Cannot believe how this piece of crap could be so well regarded. Totally crazy...

What did you think of them when you owned them?

 

[Mart68]

I think Travis has presented the reasons for the use of the NS10 in studios pretty comprehensively, there always seems to be an oversimplification as to what happens in the recording process amongst many enthusiasts even on ASR. Not as simple as 'good speakers = good recording.'

I have some NS10 'clones' although they were substantially cheaper than the Avantones reviewed here (about £100 GBP/pair). Yeah, they're not very good, I bought them out of interest and they only really get used as sacrificial speakers for testing old amplifiers:

 

[pierre]

I am late to the party.

I get 2 EQs for this speaker, one that optimise the LW and one that optimise the PIR (and then the score) but try to keep the LW under control

Score 1.5 and 5.1 with a perfect subwoofer
With EQ for LW: 4.5 and 7.4 with a perfect subwoofer
With EQ for PIR: 5.0 and 7.8 with a perfect subwoofer

The first big PK linearize the bass but of course will cost you in terms of preamp gain (or max SPL).

EQ for Avantone Pro CLA-10 computed from ASR data
Preference Score 1.53 with EQ 4.51
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.24
Dated: 2023-08-05-18:05:09

Preamp: -8.6 dB

Filter  1: ON PK Fc    81 Hz Gain +7.97 dB Q 1.67
Filter  2: ON PK Fc   320 Hz Gain +3.29 dB Q 0.57
Filter  3: ON PK Fc   844 Hz Gain +2.43 dB Q 3.01
Filter  4: ON PK Fc  1394 Hz Gain -2.24 dB Q 0.77
Filter  5: ON PK Fc  6069 Hz Gain -1.20 dB Q 1.94
Filter  6: ON PK Fc  9691 Hz Gain +3.15 dB Q 1.71
Filter  7: ON PK Fc 15474 Hz Gain +4.79 dB Q 2.43

Now let's go and optimise the PIR. Notice that the LW stays in the +3/-3dB. Score would go up higher (as @Maiky76 proved above) if you let it drop more.

EQ for Avantone Pro CLA-10 computed from ASR data
Preference Score 1.53 with EQ 5.03
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.24
Dated: 2023-08-05-18:19:19
Preamp: -8.2 dB

Filter  1: ON PK Fc    80 Hz Gain +7.86 dB Q 1.30
Filter  2: ON PK Fc   331 Hz Gain +3.24 dB Q 0.78
Filter  3: ON PK Fc   844 Hz Gain +2.28 dB Q 3.23
Filter  4: ON PK Fc  3216 Hz Gain -2.49 dB Q 0.50
Filter  5: ON PK Fc  6489 Hz Gain -1.16 dB Q 5.51
Filter  6: ON PK Fc  9691 Hz Gain +1.83 dB Q 2.60
Filter  7: ON PK Fc 16000 Hz Gain +3.29 dB Q 1.21

I have listen to this speaker and it's not great, on a console or not. Directivity errors are too high and that make it hard to move around the console.

@Maiky76 I have done a few changes in my code and I am getting closer to your data but not exactly there. I compared your spinorama and mine and they are now identical up to 2.10e.-7. So far so good. We must have other small differences in how we compute the score.

 

[Waxx]

The thing about the NS10 and the Auratones (the orignal of the avatones) was that they are a very good and consitant testbox on how mixes sound on lower end systems. That is the only reason why studio's have them. You can also use them for eq'ing midrange problems out of a mix. But they were always next to some other monitors that were used for 95% of the mixing and those were relative neutral in the big studio's. And then the hype came and people started to use them without knowing for what (CLA usd them.

And also, if you know speakers very well, you can mix on ay speaker with a wide enough range. Knowing the speaker with a wide range of music inside out is more important than absolute neutrality for a mixing engineer. That's why so many including CLA carried them arround as reference whereever they went.

And mastering on those never happened in serious studio's, they are only used as refence for low end system like said above. These days many also use a apple homepod for that, as that is closer to what people use today as lower end system. I even know a mastering guy who use a cheap bose boombox as his reference for that. He know that box inside out and know how something should sound on it,

 

[Ported]

The thing about the NS10 and the Auratones (the orignal of the avatones) was that they are a very good and consitant testbox on how mixes sound on lower end systems. That is the only reason why studio's have them. You can also use them for eq'ing midrange problems out of a mix. But they were always next to some other monitors that were used for 95% of the mixing and those were relative neutral in the big studio's. And then the hype came and people started to use them without knowing for what (CLA usd them.

And also, if you know speakers very well, you can mix on ay speaker with a wide enough range. Knowing the speaker with a wide range of music inside out is more important than absolute neutrality for a mixing engineer. That's why so many including CLA carried them arround as reference whereever they went.

And mastering on those never happened in serious studio's, they are only used as refence for low end system like said above. These days many also use a apple homepod for that, as that is closer to what people use today as lower end system. I even know a mastering guy who use a cheap bose boombox as his reference for that. He know that box inside out and know how something should sound on it,

I would agree .. and it's a point where folk who have worked in the recording industry would disagree with some views aired on this forum. Working for years with well manufactured transducers you do get to learn their sound signature. As we all know transducers are the weak points.. a good mix has to be found with these limitations and knowledge of sound signatures help you navigate that space with a few relatively fixed points. NS10s are | were one of those.

 

[DSJR]

The problem with the NS-10 is that it was ignorantly designed to have flat in-room response, instead of flat anechoic response. It's actually a well-engineered speaker, it's just that the engineering target was massively wrong. In any case, using it for any kind of serious mixing or mastering is a colossal mistake -- it was really only good for hearing how the mix would sound on a clock radio or similar quality playback system.

This Avantone is just a poorly engineered POS.

We had a few pairs to sell in the 80's and the pair I heard at our other store were sat on shelves at ear height, driven by a smaller 'stack system' possibly Yamaha (I can't remember now, but this was before the hoo-ha regarding this speaker. ON SHELVES tight to the wall behind, they sounded bright I admit, but VERY clean and clear in fairness. Whether one could really enjoy music at home with them set this way is a moot point, but the number of small 'flat response' boxes I hears which sounded thuddy and thick-textured in the mids when used this way was considerable. Got to say it (again I'm afraid) but this scenario is where the ATC 19 and 20 models had an edge, as the tightly drawn and lower balanced bass response worked well, even if they weren't so good in free space...

A vendor in the UK did not exactly a clone of the NS10 but a slightly larger and very cheap alternative called the SN10. I wonder how these fare? Revised and distanced from the original intention it seems -

SN10 MkIII Passive Studio Monitors pair by Lambden Audio

SN10 MkIII Passive Studio Monitors pair by Lambden Audio is designed ideally for both project and professional studio settings. Pristine sound reproduction with an impressively flat 50Hz - 20kHz frequency range. Extended bass response, smooth top end, and excellent stereo imagery. 6.5-inch bass...

www.studiospares.com

They've been significantly distanced now from the original version aimed as a cheap NS10 replacement, the cones now a polyprop type. Very cheap though so may be a funky basic pair of boxes...

P.S. Didn't see @Mart68 post above where he shows the original SN10. For a hundred quid as-was...

 

[amirm]

BTW if you can't find NS-10 for good price, look for NS-615 instead. They're the same speakers just without the mirrored tweeter position but in nice wood veneer. They usually cost less than half price of NS-10s

I looked but I hardly find any listing for NS-615.

 

[DSJR]

it's a 70s vintage design, so yeah - directivity wasn't even understood much yet.

I think the BBC had done research back in the 70's, but not sure they had the tweeter tech then to realise the results that well.

 

[Egoist]

What people used to say was: if it sounds good in a NS10, it will sound good in any speaker.

 

[DSJR]

Got to add that a quick scroll on gearspace just now, the emphasis is on LEARNING the monitors to be used. These things are professional tools to do a particular job, not a domestic kick-back-and-enjoy-the-music kind of speaker. This I think is where some here maybe don't understand?

 

[Geert]

"To understand the history you first have to appreciate its context."

Every time a pro audio product is being reviewed this forum goes crazier with fantasies and assumptions then any audiophile believers forum. Sound engineers don't know better than audiophiles, sound engineers must have serious hearing loss and so on.

For a start, I have never seen this Avantone in a commercial studio. It's not because someone makes a speaker and calls it a monitor, that it's effectively being used by audio pro's. Major logic error.

Surprised that no one has thought up the tissue paper over the tweeters to dull the brightness yet.

Don't know what you mean by that, but this actually was a common thing to do. That is, until Yamaha recognised engineers didn't really appreciate the overly bright character of these speakers and came with a second generation with reduced highs. So far for the deaf sound engineers myth.

And from practice I can tell you, if you could make a mix work on NS10's you were golden. It's hard work to pull that off. And of course you still finalise your mix on state of the art monitors.

 

[Geert]

Got to add that a quick scroll on gearspace just now, the emphasis is on LEARNING the monitors to be used

Correct, so when you use NS10's you focus on the low mid and mid, and you understand the low and highs can't be trusted. They are just one tool in a tool box.

 

[Grotti]

Correct, so when you use NS10's you focus on the low mid and mid, and you understand the low and highs can't be trusted. They are just one tool in a tool box.

I never understood this point: why not use a monitor with a right tonal balance in the first place instead of mixing low mids and mids on a "broken speaker" like the NS 10 and than going back to another speaker to adjust lows and highs?

Or just add some low mids and mids with PEQ on an otherwise "perfect" speaker to make them stand out for evaluating the mix in this area? I think Barefoot speakers for example are offering special voicings for that kind of purpose build in their speakers.

I really don't understand the hype about the NS 10, which obviously led to a even worse speaker like the reviewed one (and yes, I listened to the NS 10 without and with the toilet paper damping of the tweeter: grating and essentially bass free sound...)

 

[holdingpants01]

I looked but I hardly find any listing for NS-615.

locally (EU) I don't see any ns10 currently for sale, but I see a pair of ns615 for ~$300