Audyssey Room EQ Review

[Laniciffo]

Hi All,
I'm new to this forum and started reading this useful thread (i'm currently at page 22/32).

I have a very basic question :
What listening mode of the AV receiver do you use for your tests ?
I do not have any multi-channel music recording, only CDs or streaming services, so only 2 channels.
Is there a way to experience a more enveloping sound, with all speakers playing, while still aiming for fidelity and good L-R separation ?
It seems that the 7-channel mode of my denon 3600 is over-processed with additional reverb, so I suspect only the 2-ch stereo mode can be considered real hi-fi.
Have you found a better solution?
Or am I completely wrong when aspiring for multi-channel fidelity out of a 2-channel source ?
Thanks to all the experts spending time to help us progress.

 

[GalZohar]

This isn't related to Auddyssey, it is a DSP function of the receiver, and there is more than one algorithm. It is really a matter of taste, but many do stick with just leaving it at 2 channels.
Auddyssey corrects each channel to sound as similar as possible to the signal it receives, for each channel separately. It doesn't do anything to change the signal in one channel based on a signal in another channel.

 

[Webninja]

From the advice in this forum, I run Audyssey on my AVR (via app), usually doing 4-5 tight locations around MLP.

In the app, I take out the BBC dip and limit correction to ~500Hz. Send the file back to AVR and then measure with REW. Adjust/make changes in Audyssey and so on.

This cycle of Audyssey and REW can continue until you’re happy. Note that only the reference mode of Audyssey will use any of your curve edits (via app).

I am by no means an expert, but this process has worked and there are times when I start over if I’m not satisfied with the sound. My recent attempts to integrate sub are still ongoing.

 

[kiwifi]

Hi All,
I'm new to this forum and started reading this useful thread (i'm currently at page 22/32).

I have a very basic question :
What listening mode of the AV receiver do you use for your tests ?
I do not have any multi-channel music recording, only CDs or streaming services, so only 2 channels.
Is there a way to experience a more enveloping sound, with all speakers playing, while still aiming for fidelity and good L-R separation ?
It seems that the 7-channel mode of my denon 3600 is over-processed with additional reverb, so I suspect only the 2-ch stereo mode can be considered real hi-fi.
Have you found a better solution?
Or am I completely wrong when aspiring for multi-channel fidelity out of a 2-channel source ?
Thanks to all the experts spending time to help us progress.

Multichannel Stereo works well for 2 channel source material.

 

[krabapple]

Hi All,
I'm new to this forum and started reading this useful thread (i'm currently at page 22/32).

I have a very basic question :
What listening mode of the AV receiver do you use for your tests ?
I do not have any multi-channel music recording, only CDs or streaming services, so only 2 channels.
Is there a way to experience a more enveloping sound, with all speakers playing, while still aiming for fidelity and good L-R separation ?
It seems that the 7-channel mode of my denon 3600 is over-processed with additional reverb, so I suspect only the 2-ch stereo mode can be considered real hi-fi.
Have you found a better solution?
Or am I completely wrong when aspiring for multi-channel fidelity out of a 2-channel source ?
Thanks to all the experts spending time to help us progress.

You seem to be asking about upmixing. That's not a function of Audyssey, it's a DSP feature built into your AVR. You may have several upmixer options -- Dolby Surround, DTS Neural, others. These will attempt to split out parts of the 2-channel signal, to send them to different channels, simulating a true multichannel mix. Check your user manual under 'sound modes'. I use Dolby Surround (though it's an inferior replacement of Dolby PLII)

'7 channel ' or "Multi Ch Stereo' isn't usually a real upmixer like the ones I mention above. Often it's just the same mono signal from 7 channels -- good for a party where speakers are placed around the house. Ditto the various 'room simulators' like 'jazz club','rock conert'', etc. IMO they're all junk.

 

[Dennis_FL]

This is not an either or situation. I have a 120 dB SINAD DAC and room EQ (Dirac) together. For stereo listening, you can use different EQ solutions or do it manually as I have partially shown in my speaker reviews. All you need is a parametric EQ to make a few bass corrections and a good speaker.

For movies and multichannel, automatic systems are much faster and easier to use. And use of advanced audio decoders is mandatory so an AVR fits there.

I was wondering if the difference between the following is significant

[A} Roon -- > Gustard DAC --> Marantz AVR A/D resampling --> Audyssey Room correction ---> AVR D/A --> Amp --->Speakers

[B} Roon --> Room correction using REW --> Gustard DAC ---> Analog Preamp ---> Amp --> Speakers.

I have the equipment to test both ways (including the Audyssey phone App) but by the time I switch from one to the other it isn't the same as a quick A/B comparison and it is hard to evaluate. I was also wondering if my Mac sound card signal generation is the same as the Audyssey signal internal to the Marantz (are they both flat?).

So....anyone aware of someone testing room correction downstream of the external DAC (with AVR A/D and D/A) vs. upstream digital room correction

 

[peng]

I was wondering if the difference between the following is significant

[A} Roon -- > Gustard DAC --> Marantz AVR A/D resampling --> Audyssey Room correction ---> AVR D/A --> Amp --->Speakers

[B} Roon --> Room correction using REW --> Gustard DAC ---> Analog Preamp ---> Amp --> Speakers.

I have the equipment to test both ways (including the Audyssey phone App) but by the time I switch from one to the other it isn't the same as a quick A/B comparison and it is hard to evaluate. I was also wondering if my Mac sound card signal generation is the same as the Audyssey signal internal to the Marantz (are they both flat?).

So....anyone aware of someone testing room correction downstream of the external DAC (with AVR A/D and D/A) vs. upstream digital room correction

Yeah it is tough to do such listening comparisons. So to me, I just go with what I see from my REW plots, once I got it within <+/- 1.5 dB 20 to 200 Hz then it's done and then I would just play with the bass tilt (so called Harman curve). Based on that, my minidsp 4XHD will likely remain in the original box forever since XT32 SubEQ HT +App+Ratbuddyssey can do a better job.

 

[Dj7675]

Yeah it is tough to do such listening comparisons. So to me, I just go with what I see from my REW plots, once I got it within <+/- 1.5 dB 20 to 200 Hz then it's done and then I would just play with the bass tilt (so called Harman curve). Based on that, my minidsp 4XHD will likely remain in the original box forever since XT32 SubEQ HT +App+Ratbuddyssey can do a better job.

Have you ever tried running MSO? I never did, results looked quite amazing and these results seem to be over a wide area.

 

[Steve Dallas]

I was wondering if the difference between the following is significant

[A} Roon -- > Gustard DAC --> Marantz AVR A/D resampling --> Audyssey Room correction ---> AVR D/A --> Amp --->Speakers

[B} Roon --> Room correction using REW --> Gustard DAC ---> Analog Preamp ---> Amp --> Speakers.

I have the equipment to test both ways (including the Audyssey phone App) but by the time I switch from one to the other it isn't the same as a quick A/B comparison and it is hard to evaluate. I was also wondering if my Mac sound card signal generation is the same as the Audyssey signal internal to the Marantz (are they both flat?).

So....anyone aware of someone testing room correction downstream of the external DAC (with AVR A/D and D/A) vs. upstream digital room correction

(A)
Why would you use the Gustard DAC at all? Why not simply plug into the AVR via HDMI? Honestly, I find my Denon's DAC is good enough that I cannot hear a difference between it and objectively better DACs.

(B)
In this pathway, I would purchase Dirac Live Standalone and use that instead of trying to achieve good correction with EQ. Audyssey and Dirac are so much better than simple PEQ filters.

You cannot get results like these with EQ alone:

Interestingly, I had unwittingly inverted the phase on both subs when I changed the plate amps. Audyssey was still able to work with it and produce a good result. I have since fixed that and re-run Audyssey measurements. It made little difference.

(I still need to work on the SBIR region centered around 125Hz...)

 

[Dennis_FL]

(A)
Why would you use the Gustard DAC at all? Why not simply plug into the AVR via HDMI? Honestly, I find my Denon's DAC is good enough that I cannot hear a difference between it and objectively better DACs.

(B)
In this pathway, I would purchase Dirac Live Standalone and use that instead of trying to achieve good correction with EQ. Audyssey and Dirac are so much better than simple PEQ filters.

You cannot get results like these with EQ alone:

View attachment 186384

View attachment 186387

Interestingly, I had unwittingly inverted the phase on both subs when I changed the plate amps. Audyssey was still able to work with it and produce a good result. I have since fixed that and re-run Audyssey measurements. It made little difference.

(I still need to work on the SBIR region centered around 125Hz...)

I had never thought of HDMI…..but the DAC in the AVR is yuck-o. I’m looking for a comparison of upstream and downstream room correction…everything else the same

HDMI would be required for multichannel

 

[GalZohar]

I had never thought of HDMI…..but the DAC in the AVR is yuck-o. I’m looking for a comparison of upstream and downstream room correction…everything else the same

HDMI would be required for multichannel

With option A you use the AVR DAC anyway, don't you?

Generally as far as I know in receivers (such as Denon/Marantz) that don't have an option for external DAC (digital output to DAC), you can't have room correction or even bass management or any other processing without using the internal DAC.

 

[Dennis_FL]

With option A you use the AVR DAC anyway, don't you?

Generally as far as I know in receivers (such as Denon/Marantz) that don't have an option for external DAC (digital output to DAC), you can't have room correction or even bass management or any other processing without using the internal DAC.

Exactly....I want to know if someone has tested it. In option B -- it is all analog and should sound better than the AVR resampling the beautiful output of the Gustard.

Option A gives me bass management and room correction.

 

[Chromatischism]

the DAC in the AVR is yuck-o

Please provide evidence for your claim.

 

[Steve Dallas]

I had never thought of HDMI…..but the DAC in the AVR is yuck-o. I’m looking for a comparison of upstream and downstream room correction…everything else the same

HDMI would be required for multichannel

But you are suggesting DA -> AD -> DA, which is at least double the yuck-o.

 

[Chromatischism]

The reviews show that to be not the case: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/denon-avr-x3600h-av-receiver-review.12676/

 

[krabapple]

I had never thought of HDMI…..but the DAC in the AVR is yuck-o.

Sighted evaluations of DACs are doubleplus yuck-o.

 

[Dennis_FL]

The reviews show that to be not the case: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/denon-avr-x3600h-av-receiver-review.12676/

I have the Marantz 6013 with Audyssey MultiEq XT32 which is substantially similar to the poorly tested 6014

My choices for room correction are

a) Roon (iMac as core) --> Ethernet --> RP3 --> USB--> Gustard X16 DAC --> Marantz 6013 Analog In --->A/D--> Audyssey--> D/A--> Pre Out --> A/B Amp ---> Speakers/Sub with low level LFE input

b) Roon (iMac as core) --> REW Room correction --> Ethernet --> RP3 --> USB--> Gustard X16 DAC --> Sabaj Pre Amp ---> A/B Amp ---> Speakers/Sub (high pass speaker wires)

I currently am set up with a) .....without my sub (UPS damaged it in shipping and is taking forever to settle)

I have three DACs......The Gustard, the Marantz, and an Oppo. In side by sides without room correction, the Gustard bypassing the Marantz is excellent. If I put the Marantz in the loop - the Gustard still sounds great but a little less sharp. The Oppo is OK but an obvious step down. The Marantz by itself I always thought was great until I heard the Gustard. It is also a step down....maybe a touch better than the Oppo. (technical term is yuck-o)

 

[peng]

Have you ever tried running MSO? I never did, results looked quite amazing and these results seem to be over a wide area.

Can you post a link to such amazing results please? For me, and my room anyway, after years of playing with totally manual, Audyssey XT, then XT32/Sub EQ HT, with and without a minidsp 4XHD, then the Editor App, and finally the App+Ratbuddyssey, results (FR only) improved from 20-130 to 200 Hz (depending on the conditions/configurations/positioning of subs and MLPs) +/- 5 to 9 dB to +/- 1 to 1.5 dB, for the mlp or up to 10 positions averaged (I think you might have seen the results I posted on AH). So while it would interesting and fun to play with other software especially if they are free or cheap and are for use with REW/minidsp (only because I have one idling), in practical sense I don't think I need need to do anything else as there won't be any audible gain that I can imagine by using something else. Oh, I did measure impulse response, waterfall, decay, spectrogram etc..., and based on may graphs I have collected, still, I highly doubt I could improve anything that is audible even if I upgrade from what I have now all the way to Trinnov, Dirac Live, manual systems or whatever combo. If this MSO thing is free to try I might do it, but it would be for fun only.

Last edited: A

 

[peng]

(A)
Why would you use the Gustard DAC at all? Why not simply plug into the AVR via HDMI? Honestly, I find my Denon's DAC is good enough that I cannot hear a difference between it and objectively better DACs.

(B)
In this pathway, I would purchase Dirac Live Standalone and use that instead of trying to achieve good correction with EQ. Audyssey and Dirac are so much better than simple PEQ filters.

You cannot get results like these with EQ alone:

View attachment 186384

View attachment 186387

Interestingly, I had unwittingly inverted the phase on both subs when I changed the plate amps. Audyssey was still able to work with it and produce a good result. I have since fixed that and re-run Audyssey measurements. It made little difference.

(I still need to work on the SBIR region centered around 125Hz...)

I assume you have not tried tweaking it with the App and Ratbuddyssey yet based on the graphs. Given what you have now, if you do tweak it you should be able to 200, even 300 by 2 to 3 dB, though it would likely not make much difference audibly speaking when watching movies.

 

[Steve Dallas]

Sighted evaluations of DACs are doubleplus yuck-o.

Bonus points for the "1984" reference!

I have the Marantz 6013 with Audyssey MultiEq XT32 which is substantially similar to the poorly tested 6014

My choices for room correction are

a) Roon (iMac as core) --> Ethernet --> RP3 --> USB--> Gustard X16 DAC --> Marantz 6013 Analog In --->A/D--> Audyssey--> D/A--> Pre Out --> A/B Amp ---> Speakers/Sub with low level LFE input

b) Roon (iMac as core) --> REW Room correction --> Ethernet --> RP3 --> USB--> Gustard X16 DAC --> Sabaj Pre Amp ---> A/B Amp ---> Speakers/Sub (high pass speaker wires)

I currently am set up with a) .....without my sub (UPS damaged it in shipping and is taking forever to settle)

I have three DACs......The Gustard, the Marantz, and an Oppo. In side by sides without room correction, the Gustard bypassing the Marantz is excellent. If I put the Marantz in the loop - the Gustard still sounds great but a little less sharp. The Oppo is OK but an obvious step down. The Marantz by itself I always thought was great until I heard the Gustard. It is also a step down....maybe a touch better than the Oppo. (technical term is yuck-o)

And you think putting the Gustard through the AVR for additional AD and DA should somehow preserve its sound? I'm out.

I assume you have not tried tweaking it with the App and Ratbuddyssey yet based on the graphs. Given what you have now, if you do tweak it you should be able to 200, even 300 by 2 to 3 dB, though it would likely not make much difference audibly speaking when watching movies.

I have messed by Ratbuddyssey, but did not find XT32 to be willing play along with complex curves. I have graphs somewhere around here...