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Audyssey Room EQ Review

detlev24

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Hi mitchco, thank you for the great information!

However, at 1:10:57 in that video you state that bass traps would absorb the energy of consecutive huge 'dips and peaks' at an equal magnitude (unless I misunderstood, due to possible language barrier). It seems the opposite is the case, as shown at Myth #5 on Ethan Winer's website. I was also surprised to see, how effective (many) bass traps can be below 100 Hz [Myth #4].

It appears to me that proper acoustic room treatment remains the best basis for - and allows for a better implementation of - DSP.
 

Dj7675

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I have a question about manually inputting the curve (with the bass boost) into the app. I boosted 5 db below 200 hz on each of the front and surround channels- should I also boost this on the subwoofer, or is that doubling the effect? @amirm
From what I have gathered, you want the same curve on all speakers. The most important one if you are trying to add more bass is the sub, since most likely all of your speakers are set to small with crossovers applied.
 

mitchco

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Hi @detlev24 thanks for taking the time to review my talk. Many years ago, I was a partner in an acoustics manufacturing company where we designed and developed bass traps, broadband absorbers and diffuser panels. We had our products tested in an anechoic chamber and used them in many critical listening rooms, studio control rooms, movie theatres, etc. Attached is small review from Andrew Marshall's Ideas Guide from a long (long!) time ago.

Here is the issue and taking a line from Ethan's site from the links you referenced, "It's true their absorption is less than above 80-100 Hz, but you make up for that by having more of them." What is not being said is that by "having more of them" means "stuffing" the room with bass traps. But while stuffing the room with bass traps can be effective below 100 Hz means that above 100 Hz there is way too much absorption and typically produces a huge hole in the frequency response in the 200 to 300 Hz region where the bass traps are at maximum efficiency. I see it/measure it over and over again where folks have stuffed their room with bass traps and we need to yank them out. Mostly in studio control rooms, but also in home listening rooms.

This is what I meant by absorb by equal amplitude. In order to get the performance below 100 Hz, by stuffing the room, you are also going to absorb above 100 Hz. Bass traps are "not surgical" by affecting the one range of frequencies of interest, but not another range. For sure one can somewhat even out the peaks and dips with trapping, but it takes a lot of them (i.e. gets expensive fast in addition to the decor if it is a home listening room). And as mentioned, usually at the expense of having way too much absorption above the room's transition frequency, unless one has purchased "Helmholtz resonators" which are even more expensive than typical bass traps.

As I have stated many times before, I am not against acoustic treatment and I use some in my own listening room, and spec for other rooms, but it is typically used to bring down the overall broadband decay time to meet industry standard specifications. For home listening environments, my experience is that unless one's room is complete devoid of any absorption, most rooms broadband decay time falls within the industry specs, without any room treatment. I say that having measured hundreds of rooms over decades.

The most efficient and cost effective way with dealing with the inevitable uneven bass response in a room is via DSP/DRC. I mean state of the art DSP where not only the frequency response is even, but also the low frequency reflections over time have been taken care of (i.e. the ideal minimum phase response has been restored). Here is an example of what I mean. Stand a mic up at the listening position and using REW, with its default 500ms window which lets a good portion of the room reflections through. Note this chart has no smoothing applied:


JBL 4722 F18 in-room FR at 9ft.jpg


Below 200 Hz we see both frequency and phase are "textbook" perfect (and not at just one listening position as my book goes into detail verifying at many locations) and above we are starting to let the room reflections through, on purpose. I would hazard a guess that most folks have not heard even bass response in their rooms before, so using some level of DSP/DRC to smooth the low frequency response is a big step up. However, also correcting for excess phase in the low frequencies increases the clarity of the bass response where few folks have ever heard before. Every bass note is not only even, but crystal clear. Before DSP, I have only heard that quality of bass response in proper acoustically designed control rooms that go way beyond just acoustic treatments, but that is a whole different post :)

I hope you are enjoying the music!
 

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detlev24

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Wow, thank you @mitchco for taking the time to reply so extensively! This is highly appreciated.

I absolutely agree with your clarifications; and I am only in the process of learning how to properly implement DSP in my 5.2 system. :)

"Unfortunately", I heave to rely on the somewhat limited capabilities of my 'miniDSP DDRC-88D + BM option', due to varying sources. For instance, my 'Raspberry Pi 4 Model B' would most probably struggle to use Jriver's internal DSP for complex filters. At least, until the 64-bit OS has become "stable" and fully utilizes the most recent Linux kernel [it is "beta" for now]. Furthermore, Jriver would require to be able to use all 4 Cores of the ARM v8 CPU in a most efficient way, as well as the (up to 8GB) SDRAM - something I don't see to happen soon.

As Matthias Carstens from RME once said, there is never enough processing power available for DSP. :D

[...] I hope you are enjoying the music!
Absolutely!

But not as much as if there was no "loudness war" etc. ;)
 
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sfdoddsy

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I have a question about the L/R Bypass found on Denon receivers.

I've always thought it left your L/R unequalised, but did EQ the sub and surrounds.

However, in this review of the Denon X4100, @jhaider measured the compensation curve in L/R Bypass.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...eceivers/denon-avr-x4100-a-v-receiver-review/

His measurement (from the pre-outs) showed significant correction up to 250hz or so. Which presumably means the mains are being corrected as well.

Screen Shot 2020-11-13 at 7.56.01 am.png

If this is the case, you could probably get away with not using the app. Your EQ range is limited to below 300Hz, there is no dip added, no treble boost, and you can use DEQ as described above to create a house curve.

So is this how L/R Bypass actually works?
 

Corock

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Been playing with Audyssey in my new Denon AVR-X6700H and built two house curves with Ratbuddyssey, one with 3db boost and one with 10db boost. I've noticed that those boosts still exist even if Audyssey is turned off. I doubled checked and there is no other difference between my preset 1 and preset 2 other than the house curves. I thought those curves were only applied to the Audyssey Reference setting. Or are the curves applied as EQ and by turning off Audyssey you're just turning off the room correction while leaving the EQ?
 
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Steve Dallas

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To add a data point, here are my results with Audyssey XT32 in a Denon AVR-4700H.

This is a pair of Revel F206s and a pair of SVS SB-2000 subs. The AVR in in preamp mode driving a Peachtree Nova 150 to the front pair.

Six measurements were taken around the MLP, which is the center cushion on a small-ish sofa in a home theater having cube-like dimensions, which makes it a very challenging room. Some tasteful broadband absorption is in use.

I used the MultiEQ app to turn off the default silliness and used a BT mouse to create a curve with a 3dB boost at 20Hz.

The House curve you see in the graphs is supposedly a 10dB Harman curve I found somewhere online.

Before Audyssey (without subs):
Revel F206 Stereo Uncorrected 124 Smoothing.png



After Audyssey with correction limited to 1000 Hz (with subs):
Revel F206 Stereo Corrected to 1000Hz Audyssey.png



After Audyssey with no correction limit (with subs):
Revel F206 Stereo Corrected to 20000Hz Audyssey.png


I prefer it with correction limited to 1000 Hz, as it seems best to let Revels to as much of what they are good at as possible.

Overall, I am quite satisfied with the results. The low frequency response is much improved in my difficult room, and the midrange choppiness is smoothed to some extent.

More info:
Screenshot_20201022-144245.png


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Screenshot_20201107-191619.png


Screenshot_20201107-191641.png


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Screenshot_20201107-185932.png


Screenshot_20201107-185920.png
 
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KKoen

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Try to measure in the 6 positions with umik. At the same points where you measured with the mic audyssey and see the average of 6 seats.This is what audyssey does. The green chart is average without eq and the red chart is average with eq
Then you can make any curve you want.
The new curve is again the average of 6 positions.
 

Steve Dallas

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Try to measure in the 6 positions with umik. At the same points where you measured with the mic audyssey and see the average of 6 seats.This is what audyssey does. The green chart is average without eq and the red chart is average with eq
Then you can make any curve you want.
The new curve is again the average of 6 positions.

Not sure if you are asking me to re-measure?

I posted 2 REW graphs showing the results of Audyssey correction in my room as measured with a UMIK-1 and the MMM all round the same 6 positions I measured with the Denon mic.
 

Steve Dallas

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if the 2 curves are averaged from rew then ok

REW's real time analyzer averages any number of measurements. Each of those graphs represents about 80 measurements taken while moving the mic all round the main listening position.
 

Gigicoltz

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Review/Comparison of level settings for my Marantz SR6012/XT32 using a built in Mic vs UMIK-1 with calibration file loaded and REW's SPL meter (slow, C weighting).

After a recent re-calibration my wife mentioned that recently some movies we'd been watching had poor dialogue intelligibility in loud scenes. I initially thought it was the Nolam movies - a director notorious for crazy sound mixes that even lead some to clip. Then I remembered that on first setup, 3 years ago, I had funky levels too. I asked Marantz for a replacement mic in fact. So now and back then I corrected my levels using my UMIK-1 with 90 deg calibration file loaded.

Here are my results, the 3 older measurements are from my old theater with an SR6011 and it's own mic. The bottom one is from yesterday on an SR6012 with a replacement mic.

As you can see, totally different. Some channels have 4db difference. If we can't get a better mic to feed Audssey, something that will have the biggest audible difference - levels- is something it can't seem to set properly. Unless you get lucky with your mic.

Next experiment will be to point the UMIK 90 deg away from the ceiling speakers to see if there's any difference in the SPL levels REW reads.

Edit: there is a difference, it's only 0.5db. The heights run 0.5db lower when you point the mic 90 degree away from them
Hi! I have the same SR6012 and I am completely, completely dissatisfied with his sound, especially in stereo. Can you suggest some improvements? I have event the MultiEq App,but I don't know how to use it properly, probably. Thanks.
 

KKoen

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Can you show us the graphs from the audyssey measurement?
 

jhaider

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I have a question about the L/R Bypass found on Denon receivers.

I've always thought it left your L/R unequalised, but did EQ the sub and surrounds.

However, in this review of the Denon X4100, @jhaider measured the compensation curve in L/R Bypass.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...eceivers/denon-avr-x4100-a-v-receiver-review/

His measurement (from the pre-outs) showed significant correction up to 250hz or so. Which presumably means the mains are being corrected as well.

Looks like I'm late to this, but I don't think that's quite right. Given the subs/mains crossover frequency of 120Hz, an octave to transition to no EQ seems intuitively reasonable to me.

It looks like you've already picked up the Audyssey app, and for the record I categorically do not recommend Audyssey unless you use it with the app so that you can limit correction bandwidth, change the low end target curve, and get rid of that midrange dip. It's so inexpensive and it makes Audyssey legitimately competitive with ARC Genesis and Dirac. Without the extra functionality in the app, it isn't
 

sfdoddsy

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I recently bought a Denon X4400 to try out XT32 against my Anthem ARC. Unfortunately the Denon's network isn't working so I'm returning, but I did do a very quick Audyssey run and then an equally quick REW session. I have to say it was pretty impressive (in Red). This is Flat. It is full range because the app doesn't work with no network. The ARC is set to below 500Hz. The comparison isn't completely fair because ARC had slightly different mic positions, but it gives a trend.

XT32 vs ARC.jpg
 

Yviena

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Is there a reason why EQuing to flat is undesirable, isn't that what the mastering engineer has so shouldn't that be most accurate?
I'm using my 5.1 setup in a nearfield configuration so maybe it's different then but flat sounds pretty good for me.
 

thewas

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Is there a reason why EQuing to flat is undesirable, isn't that what the mastering engineer has so shouldn't that be most accurate?
I'm using my 5.1 setup in a nearfield configuration so maybe it's different then but flat sounds pretty good for me.
Because the used standard above transition frequency is flat direct sound which in most rooms and with most loudspeakers causes a falling to the high response at the listeners position https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ut-room-curve-targets-room-eq-and-more.10950/
 

Bear123

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I mean the AVR Remote App - you go into Audio settings and then Audyssey.

More interesting videos on Dynamic Volume and EQ from way back in 2008:


The founder talks about how they developed Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ. Interestingly it's akin to an earlier form of machine learning.

For Dynamic Vol they took a bunch of movie mixers, turned down the volume and recorded what mix decisions they made. That created a 6tb data set. They then created a mathematical model to simulate those decisions. It also looks ahead half a frame. For anyone familar with MadVR - doesn't it sound like tone mapping!

DynEQ was the same - mix decisions based on lower volume, more accurate Fletcher/Munson curves and mix decisions based on mixing at a lower level for surround mixes. It also attempts to correct the loudness contour of quieter passages, hence it's dynamic.

I wonder if this explains the situation with side surrounds being too loud. I recall my dad's first system in the 90s didn't actually have side surrounds but rear surrounds. Windows outputting in 5.1 also gives you the option of side or rear surround. If the algorithm was trained on mix studios that were around in the mid 2000s it makes sense. But more recent installs i've done all want to use side surrounds in 5.1 or 7.1 or any of the immersive format modes.

Did some experiments with what boost it's giving to all surround channels behind you.

This is at 0db offset. So in order to correct just set your surround trims that you don't want boosted to be negative of the below at Main Vol positions below. In my case it's only the side surrounds that really bother me

View attachment 75353

The cool thing about using the Smart Select buttons is that at -20 I can correct for the Side Surrounds AND enable dynamic volume on low. I get a much better surround experience doing that.
I turn my surrounds down a few dB after Audysaey due to DEQ, which I love other than surround levels being too obnoxious.
 

Yviena

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Corock

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Hmm is there any recommendations settings/options when using the app though that should work well?

This is my first time doing room EQ so I have no idea what's most "accurate" vs most"pleasing"

I would highly recommend reading this tutorial. It will explain a lot about how, what, where, when and why of eq. The knowledge in here will set you in the right direction because ultimately only you know what is most pleasing. It's title suggest its only about bass, but it actually addresses the entire spectrum of frequencies and all of the options with room correction eq.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/guide-to-subwoofer-calibration-and-bass-preferences.2958528/
 
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