ATC speakers / Monitors

[YSC]

We should probably wait for Torbach's own reply, but why do you assume he was listening to ATC speakers before he heard all those Genelecs he mentioned, and somehow was used to an HF roll-off?

Do you even have any experience listening to ATC speakers, or are you just assuming they have a noticeable roll-off in the HF based on some of the measurements you've seen, measurements you have no deeper knowledge about?

The ATC speakers I have doesn't lack any high-frequency details and are one of the most balanced speakers I've listened to. They even have fairly good bass extension in my listening room, but I always have used subwoofers with any speakers I had to get those last octaves, which anyway makes the sound system more adaptable to the specific listening room.


Anyway, for the "next purchase", I really think the best next upgrade for most ASR members would be some sort of acoustic room treatments instead of new gear. It seems like many people here think EQ is a real substitute for that, but even for a normal living room, there are many nice-looking solutions like absorbers with paintings and stuff like that.

EQ is the last tool in the toolbox that you should only reach for when you can't go any further with speaker positioning, listener positioning, and room treatment. Those things will fix things where the problems occur, EQ is mostly a tool for hiding the problems.

well, IIRC he said he choose to work with ATC for years, so I assume that it's before he got to listen to all those genelecs, I do mentioned far before that I have listened to a set of SCM150 side by side to a set of vivid, and it did sounded dull in the high frequencies which sounded like HF roll off to me in that occasion, it's can be anything but it's as much a preference for me to you and Torbach, it's a personal choice and after all those I tried Neumann and Genelecs in local dealer before I purchased the 8030, that's personal preference so the final speaker I choose didn't matter to others.

In that listening occasion with my hifi friend, the ATC HF details is still there, though sounded distant and dull, slighlty off balanced or veiled, I dun know how to say that but that part is my personal feel, for which is more correct, I would trust measurements more, the more a constant sloped curve fitted to whatever target seems more likely to be correct to me, we didn't see any final measurement of simple FR in LP of Northward's room nor Torbach's room in final form, and the only measurement he shared mid way through his room building was in 1/3 octave, so a lot of info is really not available, if any roll off is there or not, only the measuring equipment can tell, not our personal feel/impression. even in crappy TV built in speakers, before having something to compare, ppl don't notice that some sound is missing either

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Which preference? It is the recording engineer to get the HF level so it sound natural to him and not of the voiced loudspeaker to compensate flawed recordings.


I can hear many older recordings from not small studios which show this pattern, for example that they are quite bass shy because they were mastered using the large monitors of that time without room correction, thus having too much bass which was unfortunately compensated in the records accordingly.

What is "older recordings"?

 

[thewas]

Without good reference material that you constantly come back to, to refresh your audible memory, it's a big risk your mix will be skewed tonally no matter how neutral your speakers are in the first place. I don't know if you have any experience mixing music, but when you are concentrating on fixing small things in the mix it's not uncommon for you to lose the bigger picture of the full mix, and big tonal problems slip through without you even noticing it. Good reference material that sounds right on the sound system you use, and sometimes a second pair of ears can be the solution to re-calibrate the balance of the mix. If that reference material sounds well-balanced, your own mixes will most likely end up sounding well-balanced as well.

These are all of course true and known, but the question is how to choose your reference material, if it sounds great with sounded tonality, this will affect all your recordings accordingly.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

well, IIRC he said he choose to work with ATC for years, so I assume that it's before he got to listen to all those genelecs, I do mentioned far before that I have listened to a set of SCM150 side by side to a set of vivid, and it did sounded dull in the high frequencies which sounded like HF roll off to me in that occasion, it's can be anything but it's as much a preference for me to you and Torbach, it's a personal choice and after all those I tried Neumann and Genelecs in local dealer before I purchased the 8030, that's personal preference so the final speaker I choose didn't matter to others.

In that listening occasion with my hifi friend, the ATC HF details is still there, though sounded distant and dull, slighlty off balanced or veiled, I dun know how to say that but that part is my personal feel, for which is more correct, I would trust measurements more, the more a constant sloped curve fitted to whatever target seems more likely to be correct to me, we didn't see any final measurement of simple FR in LP of Northward's room nor Torbach's room in final form, and the only measurement he shared mid way through his room building was in 1/3 octave, so a lot of info is really not available, if any roll off is there or not, only the measuring equipment can tell, not our personal feel/impression. even in crappy TV built in speakers, before having something to compare, ppl don't notice that some sound is missing either

Not correct. I have posted 1/12 measurements and Waterfall plot.

 

[thewas]

What is "older recordings"?

Well sold records from the 70-80s.

Would be interesting to do a statistic spectrum analysis for example of "top 10" rock recordings over the last 5 decades.

 

[thewas]

Not correct. I have posted 1/12 measurements and Waterfall plot.

A single measurement at the LP unfortunately doesn't really much about the perceived sound as this depends on the direct and reflected sound and those are not clearly separated there, the reason why to evaluate the quality of a loudspeaker a full anechoic spinorama is necessary.

 

[YSC]

Not correct. I have posted 1/12 measurements and Waterfall plot.

well ok, it didn't show the smoothing but looks like 1/3 or so, my bad if that's 1/12, but that still, isn't what the final room where the HF response would look interesting for if the HF is really rolled off or not.

 

[goat76]

These are all of course true and known, but the question is how to choose your reference material, if it sounds great with sounded tonality, this will affect all your recordings accordingly.

Good reference material is of course something you have heard on multiple occasions, you simply know it's good reference material. I'm quite sure you know lots of recordings that you and most others consider to be good-sounding recordings, just pick one or a few in the same genre and style of the music you are mixing and you are good to go. And make sure the reference material matches the volume of the mixing project.

 

[thewas]

Good reference material is of course something you have heard on multiple occasions, you simply know it's good reference material. I'm quite sure you know lots of recordings that you and most others consider to be good-sounding recordings, just pick one or a few in the same genre and style of the music you are mixing and you are good to go. And make sure the reference material matches the volume of the mixing project.

This doesn't change though my above statement, for example if your loudspeakers are rather warmly tuned you will rather choose as reference recordings with the opposite tonality as great sounding. Anyway this is already far OT.

 

[goat76]

This doesn't change though my above statement, for example if your loudspeakers are rather warmly tuned you will rather choose as reference recordings with the opposite tonality as great sounding. Anyway this is already far OT.

I don't think you fully understood what I said, it's very important to re-calibrate your audible memory to the reference material many times during the mixing process. If the well-known good reference material sound balanced on your sound system (to you) and that material is the reference, your own mix will not end up sounding any different than that tonally-wise.

And yes, this is all OT. Maybe not reference material, but here you have your first song from the beginning of the eighties to analyze.

 

[ctrl]

I guess if the IMD2 of my second example (27kHz+19kHz) was higher than the IMD4 of my first example (9kHz+19kHz) then it technically is an increase in IMD? Please check my logic here.

I don't think I understand what you mean.

I made two measurements for you, maybe you can do something with them.
Tweeter with extrem 25.5kHz resonance:


The measurement in orange shows the multitone distortion (HD + IMD) for 8.5kHz and 19kHz sine tone.

In green as overlay is the MD measurement for 19kHz and 25.5kHz sine tone.

The 19kHz sine tone was equally loud in both cases.
The 25.5kHz sine tone was slightly louder than the HD3 produced by the 8.5kHz sine tone in the orange measurement.

Nevertheless, [email protected] of the green measurement (19/25.5kHz) is slightly lower than IMD4 of the first (orange) measurement with 8.5/19kHz.

Didn't measure the sound pressure level but SPL was so loud that I had to wear hearing protection when the 8.5kHz sine wave in the first case was played.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Well sold records from the 70-80s.

Would be interesting to do a statistic spectrum analysis for example of "top 10" rock recordings over the last 5 decades.

But back then the limitations were widely dictated by both recording and playback medium, studio tape machines that would make the HF go more and more dull with each playback, and vinyl with lots of LF and HF would make the record distort or even jump so that had to be avoided. Vinyl today is much more forgiving and can handle a lot more dense full bandwidth mixes, as pressing technology has evolved. Digital capture and playback did not have these issue, and hence the 80's and 90's were full of shrill and harsh mixes - people had to learn how to handle this kind of "unlimited" bandwidth, and the first mistake made was overloading HF and Highmid. Then came the 00 and up til now where I would say we see both ends of the spectrum - way overloaded LF and/or HF, but also a lot of greatly balanced records.

 

[SoundGuy]

I am not silly. The clouding in the low mids is substantial, vocals sound overly thick, and with a tweeter taking over at 1250hz there is a lacking sense of mid and treble perspective when combined with the lowmid harmonics.

They are good for what they do in the lows, the rest is not in balance. Even in an untreated room where the LF response was vastly better with the 8c, it did not compete with the good 3-ways on hand. I even tried them again last week to give it a 3rd listen in another room. Same problems as in my room.

Typical PA two way speaker Issue. Overly large mid woofer to achieve SPL performance. Vocals get lost in the mix. No way that tweeter can do much clean SPL at 1250Hz without a compression horn.

Complete tosh, I realise you are an ATC fanboy but loudspeakers are entirely characterised by their measurements, I would like nothing more than for ATC to develop a really state of the art loudspeaker rather than re-iterating a forty year old design.
Keith

You can’t be serious? You claim you can’t sell ATC and ATC dropped you as a dealer and you ‘want nothing more than ATC to develop a really state of the art loudspeaker” - this sounds seriously ingenuous. Furthermore you claim that speakers are characterized fully by measurements - really? This statement is not just complete tosh - it shows a complete lack of expertise and experience in audio hi-fidelity. Everyone knows that speakers sound different and more so than any other component in the hi-fidelity chain - IRRESPECTIVE of measurements there are still significant audible differences in speakers - why else would you have a show room?

I am calling you out on your constant denigration of ATC products and the behaviour of ATC as a company, even going as far as to question their integrity. You should be ashamed. You obviously have an axe to grind with ATC but instead of discussing with them you take out your frustration here online in an open forum. Honestly, as a dealer, you are only hurting yourself and Purite Audio more with each ridiculous biased post. I suggest you stop and think about your own interests? D&D may be delighted today by your bashing of ATC until they realize that one day you will no longer be praising D&D as the holy grail and may even resort to bashing D&D products with the next latest and greatest speaker you want to move! I am sure ATC didn’t force you to carry their line of speakers - it was your choice - clearly you misjudged your market when introducing ATC if you can’t sell any - clearly your customers much prefer “bang for the buck” or ”best value” in your market. This isn’t ATC fault.

 

[Frgirard]

Typical PA two way speaker Issue. Overly large mid woofer to achieve SPL performance. Vocals get lost in the mix. No way that tweeter can do much clean SPL at 1250Hz without a compression horn.



You can’t be serious? You claim you can’t sell ATC and ATC dropped you as a dealer and you ‘want nothing more than ATC to develop a really state of the art loudspeaker” - this sounds seriously ingenuous. Furthermore you claim that speakers are characterized fully by measurements - really? This statement is not just complete tosh - it shows a complete lack of expertise and experience in audio hi-fidelity. Everyone knows that speakers sound different and more so than any other component in the hi-fidelity chain - IRRESPECTIVE of measurements there are still significant audible differences in speakers - why else would you have a show room?

I am calling you out on your constant denigration of ATC products and the behaviour of ATC as a company, even going as far as to question their integrity. You should be ashamed. You obviously have an axe to grind with ATC but instead of discussing with them you take out your frustration here online in an open forum. Honestly, as a dealer, you are only hurting yourself and Purite Audio more with each ridiculous biased post. I suggest you stop and think about your own interests? D&D may be delighted today by your bashing of ATC until they realize that one day you will no longer be praising D&D as the holy grail and may even resort to bashing D&D products with the next latest and greatest speaker you want to move! I am sure ATC didn’t force you to carry their line of speakers - it was your choice - clearly you misjudged your market when introducing ATC if you can’t sell any - clearly your customers much prefer “bang for the buck” or ”best value” in your market. This isn’t ATC fault.

Earl Geddes said all sound caractéristics are measurables.
Take yourself back.

 

[thewas]

I don't think you fully understood what I said, it's very important to re-calibrate your audible memory to the reference material many times during the mixing process. If the well-known good reference material sound balanced on your sound system (to you) and that material is the reference, your own mix will not end up sounding any different than that tonally-wise.

Sorry but I also don't think you fully understood what I said, yes, your mix will sound similar tonally wise to that reference but the choice of the reference will be questionable if it was done on a system with a non neutral sounding.

 

[Scgorg]

I don't think I understand what you mean.

I made two measurements for you, maybe you can do something with them.
Tweeter with extrem 25.5kHz resonance:
View attachment 230945

The measurement in orange shows the multitone distortion (HD + IMD) for 8.5kHz and 19kHz sine tone.

In green as overlay is the MD measurement for 19kHz and 25.5kHz sine tone.

The 19kHz sine tone was equally loud in both cases.
The 25.5kHz sine tone was slightly louder than the HD3 produced by the 8.5kHz sine tone in the orange measurement.

Nevertheless, [email protected] of the green measurement (19/25.5kHz) is slightly lower than IMD4 of the first (orange) measurement with 8.5/19kHz.

View attachment 230929

Didn't measure the sound pressure level but SPL was so loud that I had to wear hearing protection when the 8.5kHz sine wave in the first case was played.

This is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to see, thank you very much! I can hardly think of any contributors to this forum that are more educational than you.

 

[Purité Audio]

Typical PA two way speaker Issue. Overly large mid woofer to achieve SPL performance. Vocals get lost in the mix. No way that tweeter can do much clean SPL at 1250Hz without a compression horn.



You can’t be serious? You claim you can’t sell ATC and ATC dropped you as a dealer and you ‘want nothing more than ATC to develop a really state of the art loudspeaker” - this sounds seriously ingenuous. Furthermore you claim that speakers are characterized fully by measurements - really? This statement is not just complete tosh - it shows a complete lack of expertise and experience in audio hi-fidelity. Everyone knows that speakers sound different and more so than any other component in the hi-fidelity chain - IRRESPECTIVE of measurements there are still significant audible differences in speakers - why else would you have a show room?

I am calling you out on your constant denigration of ATC products and the behaviour of ATC as a company, even going as far as to question their integrity. You should be ashamed. You obviously have an axe to grind with ATC but instead of discussing with them you take out your frustration here online in an open forum. Honestly, as a dealer, you are only hurting yourself and Purite Audio more with each ridiculous biased post. I suggest you stop and think about your own interests? D&D may be delighted today by your bashing of ATC until they realize that one day you will no longer be praising D&D as the holy grail and may even resort to bashing D&D products with the next latest and greatest speaker you want to move! I am sure ATC didn’t force you to carry their line of speakers - it was your choice - clearly you misjudged your market when introducing ATC if you can’t sell any - clearly your customers much prefer “bang for the buck” or ”best value” in your market. This isn’t ATC fault.

Speakers sound different because they measure differently.
Keith

 

[goat76]

Sorry but I also don't think you fully understood what I said, yes, your mix will sound similar tonally wise to that reference but the choice of the reference will be questionable if it was done on a system with a non neutral sounding.

I said well-known good reference material. It simply can't be considered "well-known" if you never heard it outside your system, or if you're not sure it's considered to be a good-sounding recording by people in general. You see, the reference material can't be both questionable and well-known good reference material at the time.

 

[thewas]

considered to be a good-sounding recording by people in general

Then we just hope that those "people in general" have good and neutral systems.

 

[goat76]

Then we just hope that those "people in general" have good and neutral systems.

I'm sure you can name at least 50 albums you know are considered good-sounding records by yourself and most other people interested in high-quality sound reproduction.