You've read my mind.
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Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX Review
- Thread starter Narek
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Sokel
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Classical also needs high DR,so levels are as important as a quiet,treated if possible room and with some EQ to address modes (that could eat some level too,either from amp or speakers upper limit if filling dips,specially in the mid-bass which is the main bulk of classical) .
So take all that into consideration,not only with this speaker,with all of them.
So take all that into consideration,not only with this speaker,with all of them.
We hear a combination of reflections and direct sound. Our brain integrates them to each other based on the factors like incidence angle of reflections, delay, arrival time etc.
You can't look at the on-axis response and derive accurate opinions on how accurate a speaker is. 1970's JBL's have flat on-axis response too. No, they won't sound like, say Neumann KH 420. The tonality of reflections is a product of on-axis sound of speakers, the room and most importantly directivity of speakers.
Directivity influences the tonality of sound is projected towards the walls in a listening space.
Besides directivity and on-axis response, there are additional factors that determine the accuracy of speakers, such as intermodulation distortion, the order of diffractions, and group delay around 1500-3000Hz. I won't go into details.
In short, only looking for on-axis response for evaluating accuracy of speakers is so 1995 bro. Stop it.
A speaker with flat on-axis response may sound very inaccurate too. (if they have bad directivity)
You can't look at the on-axis response and derive accurate opinions on how accurate a speaker is. 1970's JBL's have flat on-axis response too. No, they won't sound like, say Neumann KH 420. The tonality of reflections is a product of on-axis sound of speakers, the room and most importantly directivity of speakers.
Directivity influences the tonality of sound is projected towards the walls in a listening space.
Besides directivity and on-axis response, there are additional factors that determine the accuracy of speakers, such as intermodulation distortion, the order of diffractions, and group delay around 1500-3000Hz. I won't go into details.
In short, only looking for on-axis response for evaluating accuracy of speakers is so 1995 bro. Stop it.
A speaker with flat on-axis response may sound very inaccurate too. (if they have bad directivity)
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I agree with this, but in the case of modern speakers, it's rare to come across an example that's successfully engineered for flat on-axis response but which also has poor off-axis/directivity. The same is generally true for distortion (unless looking at quite small, significantly SPL-limited desktop-use speakers, etc). Of course, everything needs to be taken into account for a given application, such as bass extension, volume requirements, and radiation width...just to add a few more things to your list.
I didn't read through all the messages on this thread, but for the ones I've read, I did not see anyone down playing off-axis response. Including my comments on the speakers being neutral, as my neutral comment is not limited to just on-axis response and just because I didn't specifically say anything about the off axis response, doesn't mean I didn't take that into consideration.
In any case, for these Ascend LX specifically, here are the full CEA 2034 measurements as well as contour plots:
SIERRA-LX PAIR
Our Latest And Greatest Bookshelf Monitor Class-leading bass extension, massive dynamics and midbass punch, high power handling, exceptionally wide and linear dispersion combined with some of the best measurements in the industry, our new LX is truly something quite unique and special. This is...
They are the best measuring wide directivity speakers I know, but their directivity is far from being perfect:
And that is fine, their directivity is good enough and such controlled wide directivity is incredibly rare even in 2024.
And that is fine, their directivity is good enough and such controlled wide directivity is incredibly rare even in 2024.
I think you are giving too much attention to the bass linearity. The room is going to dominate everything below the transition frequency, so ideally you will be addressing this range with positioning, EQ, and treatments (if needed) anyway. I generally prefer having more headroom - as is the case with the LX - and EQing it down if necessary, rather than the opposite.
That is extraordinarily mild of a bump on the graph. Compare that to many other speakers and you can see that this is mild at worse, I would even say this is within the neutral range.
The bass is not over emphasized for me.
And anything better than this will require DSP or active crossover such as this Neumann, which I also own.
They are completely useful, however the response below 300hz is 80% dominated by standing waves forming inside a room. Speakers with flat bass response may sound bass light or very bass heavy depending on the room. Those speakers you mentioned can sound very bass light depending on the room & placement as well. In short, It can be very misleading to draw conclusions on how speakers sound in a room based on the on-axis measurements below 300hz.
Of course that is not what I said. In fact, I stated the opposite when referring to headroom and EQ. What is not of great importance in this region as it generally is above the room transition is perfect linearity.
The site that you pulled those charts from rates the "flatness" of each speaker. Nothing below 300Hz contributes to this rating due in large part to the above.
PIR can't tell you the full picture too. Yeah. Human auditory system works different than how microphones combine direct sound and reflections.
Speakers with heavily boosted on-axis treble will sound incredibly bright even if their in room response looks like the response in the attachment. Simply because direct sound is perceptually dominant over reflections. Sean Olive talks about in his interview with Erin, Toole's book goes into smallest details of this phenomenon.
Moreover, estimated in room response is a FAR FIELD prediction. It is an attempt to portray how speakers sound while the listener is standing in a far field where early reflections and late reflections are both part of the perceived response together. Those predictions won't work in near field. Again, this was mentioned in Toole's book. Where far field starts is different for every speaker. It is better to have measurements than having nothing though.
audio objectivism without factoring psychoacoustics is just mathematical story telling. And that makes it subjective again. Because that is just telling your own story with mathematical results that has barely anything to do with the conclusions you want to make.
You are paying for additional power handling/SPL ability, lower distortion, and more bass extension, not just the "bump".
I'm glad you asked. LX 1) more bass extension 2) CEA-2034 is more neutral, estimated in-room response is almost never the case 3) the SEAS woofer uses a large magnet resulting in bigger and badder slam that you can't identify in the graph
Btw Ziggy, if you are thinking about the 1 v2, by all means, that is a great speaker. You can't go wrong with that.
Pareto Pragmatic
Active Member
Here I've been thinking the worst thing about this purchase is that I did not get them months ago. But it looks like my delay had benefits!
Speaking for myself, I wouldn't. I paid the money for more control (aka less distortion) in the bass. I did think long and hard about that decision, part of me said no, part said yes. But since it was in my budget, and I doubt I will ever regret getting a better driver in a speaker, I went for it. For a no-sub pretty big space want to play pretty loud situation.
I do understand one could look at those two frequency responses and think "pretty much the same", btw. To make my decision I had to dig deeper into the measurements, but also had to listen and interpret what people here and elsewhere have said about the sound. Bass "slam/punch" is mentioned a lot, or similar words. Once I translated that to "controlled", which made more sense to me given the measurements, the bigger picture became clear.
Seriously, the bass from the very first second of music play laid any lingering doubts I had about the choice to rest. It took me days to acclimate from from my old speakers for mids and highs, but the bass was immediately and clearly stellar.
I have directly compared the LX and EX with a switch at Ascend. Since I mainly listen to jazz, I though I might prefer the EX, since it has the better tweeter (Raal). My then 62-year-old ears could not really hear the difference with acoustic guitar, although Dave, as a guitar player, can hear the difference. Because I had the Sierra 2, an upgrade to the EX would have been less expensive since I would have been able to keep my Raal. I preferred the LX. Many people comment about how big it sounds, which I think is more of a function of its imaging rather than it's bass. I have been very happy with it.
Received my LX on 3/25, I have been switching back and forth between the Polk R200 and the Axiom M22Ti(been using it for 20 years now). In the very beginning, the top end from LX was way too laid back, and being perceived as lacking in detail, and almost seemed muted when I compared it to the R200, and M22Ti (Titanium tweeters). I had the LX from PC>Topping D10S>NC252MP initially. But the REW measurement showed the LX has plenty of detail though, just that for the longest time I was used to the elevated 10Khz~20Khz range from the Titanium tweeters. lol
On 2nd day, I used the Denon X1800h as a preamp and took out the Topping 10Ds DAC, from PC >X1800h>NC252MP and turned on the SVS sub, once I ran the Audyssey, and adjusted a few settings, the LX woke up immediately, as if I removed a wet towel draped over the speakers, it was a night and day difference, a lot more detail in the mid and up top, and a hell lot meatier and punchier down low with the addition of SVS sub. I had to measure and tune the setting many times to get it to where I was happy with the result in my office.
Instrument separation is very good, mid range is buttery smooth, both male and female vocals are fuller, rounder, a bit warmer, and sound more natural and realistic, not as dry as R200 and M22Ti, I have been switching back and forth between them for about 5 days now. Plenty of zing and snap from recording with lots of Hi-hat and Cymbals without sounding shrill, metallic, or edgy, very pleasing and easy to my ears. LX’s imaging is more precise, and also has deeper and higher sound stage as well.
Bass extension from these LX without a sub is very good in my small office, it’s even more unreal in a much bigger living room, the LX went down to 30hz then roll off smoothly (see measurement below). Running LX alone probably would be fine and sufficed for a lot of other people, but I ain't other people, I’m a bass head and I always need a good amount of bass energy that would cover down to single digit Hz for movies and games that I could feel, even at moderate listening volume. There's simply no replacement for displacement, I will always run subs even when i get around to buy the ELX towers in the future.
Sensitivity:
I measured the R200 to be about 4dB higher than LX at the exact same gain level; But since I usually only listen to music at around 75~80dB, and 85~90dB peak for movies and games, sensitivity isn't a real concern for me, but if you need to play them at concert level, the LX could handle a ton more power if necessary, 350~500W.
What I like about the LX:
-It's textbook linear in my room
-Silky smooth top range between 10Khz~20Khz, LX is VERY detail and respond well to tuning from Audyssey, I can listen to music, play games, and watch movies at higher dB level for much longer period of time without getting fatigue.
-Deeper and bigger soundstage
-Bass extension between 80 to 30hz is unbelievable coming from bookshelf at this size
-The bamboo cabinet feel a lot more dense and solid, build like a tank and very high quality construction
-Minimalist binding post
-Very good imaging
-Good sonic improvement over the R200 and M22Ti for me, in my application
-Great support from Dave and his team, super fast shipping
Subjectively speaking, these Titan dome tweeters are detail enough for me, I do not know what RAAL tweeters sound like so I have no idea what I'm missing out, if any. But so far I'm happy with the LX.
On-Axis. Here's my small office’s in-room FR measured with the REW+Umik1 at seating position about 5.5ft away, the LX are 7ft apart, and 4ft from the back wall, it's VERY linear and SUPER flat FR in my office: PC > Topping D10S > NC252MP > LX.
On-Axis. PC > X1800h > NC252MP > LX plus SVS sub. Tuned with Audyssey, i'll continue to play with the setting to see if i could smooth out the region between 100~300hz.
On 2nd day, I used the Denon X1800h as a preamp and took out the Topping 10Ds DAC, from PC >X1800h>NC252MP and turned on the SVS sub, once I ran the Audyssey, and adjusted a few settings, the LX woke up immediately, as if I removed a wet towel draped over the speakers, it was a night and day difference, a lot more detail in the mid and up top, and a hell lot meatier and punchier down low with the addition of SVS sub. I had to measure and tune the setting many times to get it to where I was happy with the result in my office.
Instrument separation is very good, mid range is buttery smooth, both male and female vocals are fuller, rounder, a bit warmer, and sound more natural and realistic, not as dry as R200 and M22Ti, I have been switching back and forth between them for about 5 days now. Plenty of zing and snap from recording with lots of Hi-hat and Cymbals without sounding shrill, metallic, or edgy, very pleasing and easy to my ears. LX’s imaging is more precise, and also has deeper and higher sound stage as well.
Bass extension from these LX without a sub is very good in my small office, it’s even more unreal in a much bigger living room, the LX went down to 30hz then roll off smoothly (see measurement below). Running LX alone probably would be fine and sufficed for a lot of other people, but I ain't other people, I’m a bass head and I always need a good amount of bass energy that would cover down to single digit Hz for movies and games that I could feel, even at moderate listening volume. There's simply no replacement for displacement, I will always run subs even when i get around to buy the ELX towers in the future.
Sensitivity:
I measured the R200 to be about 4dB higher than LX at the exact same gain level; But since I usually only listen to music at around 75~80dB, and 85~90dB peak for movies and games, sensitivity isn't a real concern for me, but if you need to play them at concert level, the LX could handle a ton more power if necessary, 350~500W.
What I like about the LX:
-It's textbook linear in my room
-Silky smooth top range between 10Khz~20Khz, LX is VERY detail and respond well to tuning from Audyssey, I can listen to music, play games, and watch movies at higher dB level for much longer period of time without getting fatigue.
-Deeper and bigger soundstage
-Bass extension between 80 to 30hz is unbelievable coming from bookshelf at this size
-The bamboo cabinet feel a lot more dense and solid, build like a tank and very high quality construction
-Minimalist binding post
-Very good imaging
-Good sonic improvement over the R200 and M22Ti for me, in my application
-Great support from Dave and his team, super fast shipping
Subjectively speaking, these Titan dome tweeters are detail enough for me, I do not know what RAAL tweeters sound like so I have no idea what I'm missing out, if any. But so far I'm happy with the LX.
On-Axis. Here's my small office’s in-room FR measured with the REW+Umik1 at seating position about 5.5ft away, the LX are 7ft apart, and 4ft from the back wall, it's VERY linear and SUPER flat FR in my office: PC > Topping D10S > NC252MP > LX.
On-Axis. PC > X1800h > NC252MP > LX plus SVS sub. Tuned with Audyssey, i'll continue to play with the setting to see if i could smooth out the region between 100~300hz.
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