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Apple is forced to allow installation of 3rd party Apps (outside of their official store) in the EU

Do you believe this development is a positive/negative step for consumers?

  • Positive

    Votes: 25 56.8%
  • Negative

    Votes: 11 25.0%
  • Doesn’t matter to me, I’m on Android.

    Votes: 8 18.2%

  • Total voters
    44

mhardy6647

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You are correct. You purchase the hardware but you only license the software.
Interestingly - I believe that this was the case even back in the days of, e.g., LP records. One owned a piece of molded plastic, but the content encoded (so to speak) on that plastic belonged to the publisher. Of course, that never stopped anyone from selling a used LP* ;) -- but the distribution/dissemination of (digital) content can be rather more scrupulously monitored and controlled.
:cool:

__________________
* EDIT and even -- gasp -- making a tape recording of the LP's content before selling it! I know, freakin' criminals, right? I tell ya...
 

blueone

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From the offical DOJ press release!
The US DOJ is making a bogus argument that will likely get thrown out by the courts. At least I hope so. A DOJ win would mean that any virtually product which becomes popular is subject to political regulation.
 

blueone

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Interestingly - I believe that this was the case even back in the days of, e.g., LP records. One owned a piece of molded plastic, but the content encoded (so to speak) on that plastic belonged to the publisher. Of course, that never stopped anyone from selling a used LP ;) -- but the distribution/dissemination of (digital) content can be rather more scrupulously monitored and controlled.
:cool:
Selling used LP, tape, or CD has never been seen as a copyright or license violation. What is breaking the law in the US and the EC is buying a CD, making copies, and then selling the copies. Making a derivative of the recording (like removing the vocals to make karaoke backgrounds) is also illegal.
 

blueone

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Android is purchased with conditions too. If you don't like this company town you can move to that company town, but you'll have to leave behind anything you bought in the company store. Google do allow other companies to have a store, but they'll keep reminding you how dangerous it is to go to that part of town.

It depends how you define the market. Both Apple and Google argue the market is 'mobile apps' or even 'apps' so they can excuse their anticompetitive conduct by pointing to the other as a competitor. That conveniently ignores the significant barriers to migration that both have erected so that few people move from one to the other. Epic's argument is that the barriers are sufficient to have separated the markets so there are two monopolies instead one one duopoly. Europe seems slightly more open to the idea that both members of a duopoly can have power to distort the market enough for antitrust law to apply.
There's apparently no viable market at all for a totally open smartphone. If there was a company like Qualcomm would happily sell the chipsets, cheap screens and other phone hardware could be easily subcontracted, and an open source free OS akin to Linux would emerge. To my knowledge nothing like this is available.
 

DLS79

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The US DOJ is making a bogus argument that will likely get thrown out by the courts. At least I hope so. A DOJ win would mean that any virtually product which becomes popular is subject to political regulation.

Personally, I think they have a strong case, and some some previous precedents to fall back on.

For example I think this bullet point was worded very carefully.
  • Blocking Innovative Super Apps. Apple has disrupted the growth of apps with broad functionality that would make it easier for consumers to switch between competing smartphone platforms.

In the late 90's and very early 00's a lot of providers would not let you port your number to a different provider (if you wanted to change providers). Some did but were charging an excessive fee for it. This was seen as anti-competitive and detrimental to the consumer. in 2004 the FCC required that all carriers do it.

From 2004 to 2008 I worked for a companied that provided services to major carriers, and one of the things we did was ensure porting happened quickly.

I couldn't find the actual FCC filing but they cover the concept in this consumer guide.

I fully expect the doj will heavily imply that what the Apple is doing is very similar.
 

DLS79

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this is also a precedent from a few years back.


With the introduction of the iPhone in 2007, Apple Inc. also provided the App Store marketplace that allows third-party developers to provide mobile apps to iPhone users. Apps can be provided for free or at a price, with Apple taking a 30% cut of any revenue generated by the sale of digital products. Apple's approach has been criticized, as its terms and conditions for developers to use the App Store prevent them from selling their apps on other marketplaces, and Apple's consumer warranties strongly discourage the use of installing apps in other ways.[a] Some saw these conditions enabling Apple to effectively create a monopoly for app distribution, artificially forcing developers to raise costs of apps to cover Apple's fee. Apple has asserted that it has not violated antitrust laws as it considers itself a reseller of apps, its 30% fee a commission on the sale of those apps.[2]


The Court issued its 5–4 decision on May 13, 2019, affirming the Ninth Circuit's decision that consumers were "direct purchasers" of apps from Apple's store and had standing under Illinois Brick to sue Apple for antitrust practices.[14] Justice Brett Kavanaugh, writing for the majority, stated that under the test of Illinois Brick, consumers were directly affected by Apple's fee and were not secondary purchasers; that consumers could sue Apple directly since it was Apple's fee that affected the prices of the apps; and that while the structure for any damages that consumers may win in the continuing suit may be complicated, that is not a factor to determine the standing of the suit. The Court stated that Apple's interpretation of Illinois Brick "did not make a lot of sense" and served only to "gerrymander Apple out of this and similar lawsuits."[15] Disagreeing with Apple's reasoning, the Court explained that if adopted, it would "directly contradict the longstanding goal of effective private enforcement and consumer protection in antitrust cases." Kavanaugh was joined by Justices Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan. The decision remanded the class-action case to continue in lower courts but did not rule on any of the antitrust factors otherwise at the center of the case.[15]
 

blueone

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Personally, I think they have a strong case, and some some previous precedents to fall back on.

For example I think this bullet point was worded very carefully.


In the late 90's and very early 00's a lot of providers would not let you port your number to a different provider (if you wanted to change providers). Some did but were charging an excessive fee for it. This was seen as anti-competitive and detrimental to the consumer. in 2004 the FCC required that all carriers do it.

From 2004 to 2008 I worked for a companied that provided services to major carriers, and one of the things we did was ensure porting happened quickly.

I couldn't find the actual FCC filing but they cover the concept in this consumer guide.

I fully expect the doj will heavily imply that what the Apple is doing is very similar.
I disagree. I think the DOJ's case is made up entirely of conjecture and pseudo-technical nonsense. The core of their case is that monopoly power should be defined by any limitation a company places on its products to enhance their business. If Apple determines that a significant part of the value you get from IOS is a common look and feel, which they do, then super apps which hijack the environment to create a virtual environment inside of Apple's could be argued are corrupting Apple's value proposition. If the DOJ is correct, then proof of harm would be of another phone which supported super apps and competed successfully against Apple and Android, and there is no such thing. So the DOJ's argument is conjecture, which they aren't at all qualified to make.

Your example about phone numbers strikes me as orthogonal. Phone numbers are standardized and regulated by the FCC. Smart phone designs aren't.

The DOJ's argument about the integration between Apple watches, EarPods, iPhones, and Macs is also nonsense. Apple has achieved industry-leading integration, and to a lot of users I talk to is one of the primary reasons they like Apple products better. It an achievement which their customers value, not a ploy to restrict them from using other products.

I'm ashamed of the DOJ. I think they are abusing their authority to execute a personal political agenda on US businesses.
 

Ron Texas

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Android is purchased with conditions too. If you don't like this company town you can move to that company town, but you'll have to leave behind anything you bought in the company store. Google do allow other companies to have a store, but they'll keep reminding you how dangerous it is to go to that part of town.

It depends how you define the market. Both Apple and Google argue the market is 'mobile apps' or even 'apps' so they can excuse their anticompetitive conduct by pointing to the other as a competitor. That conveniently ignores the significant barriers to migration that both have erected so that few people move from one to the other. Epic's argument is that the barriers are sufficient to have separated the markets so there are two monopolies instead one one duopoly. Europe seems slightly more open to the idea that both members of a duopoly can have power to distort the market enough for antitrust law to apply.
I don't consider the conduct of either to be anticompetitive in the traditional sense. These companies have created new ecosystems. If Epic of Spotify want in, they should have to pay for the privilege. My view is the EU is practicing economic nationalism. The US approach is shortsighted overly academic antibusiness.
 

mhardy6647

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Selling used LP, tape, or CD has never been seen as a copyright or license violation. What is breaking the law in the US and the EC is buying a CD, making copies, and then selling the copies. Making a derivative of the recording (like removing the vocals to make karaoke backgrounds) is also illegal.
I did indeed amend my screed.

Jeepers, I feel like I was channeling T.S. Geisel with that statement's meter. :cool:

Scan0031.jpg
 

Ron Texas

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I disagree. I think the DOJ's case is made up entirely of conjecture and pseudo-technical nonsense. The core of their case is that monopoly power should be defined by any limitation a company places on its products to enhance their business. If Apple determines that a significant part of the value you get from IOS is a common look and feel, which they do, then super apps which hijack the environment to create a virtual environment inside of Apple's could be argued are corrupting Apple's value proposition. If the DOJ is correct, then proof of harm would be of another phone which supported super apps and competed successfully against Apple and Android, and there is no such thing. So the DOJ's argument is conjecture, which they aren't at all qualified to make.

Your example about phone numbers strikes me as orthogonal. Phone numbers are standardized and regulated by the FCC. Smart phone designs aren't.

The DOJ's argument about the integration between Apple watches, EarPods, iPhones, and Macs is also nonsense. Apple has achieved industry-leading integration, and to a lot of users I talk to is one of the primary reasons they like Apple products better. It an achievement which their customers value, not a ploy to restrict them from using other products.

I'm ashamed of the DOJ. I think they are abusing their authority to execute a personal political agenda on US businesses.
Thank you for your analysis. It's hard to build something, but a lot easier to destroy. The DOJ is serving nobody other than their own egos. The member you responded to has been a real annoyance in this discussion and has managed to stick his foot in his mouth big time. I finally had to put him on ignore to preserve my cool.
 

Ron Texas

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Man, the forum is really grumpy today - not just this thread either. Something's in the air.
Someone has been unreasonable and rubbing me the wrong way. He is on ignore now.
 

Doodski

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I finally had to put him on ignore to preserve my cool.
You're one of the coolest Doods around here @ ASR. I think anyway. You take no crap, deal out facts, are knowledgeable and state things right up front and center in clear English. What more could a peep want? LoL... :D
 

Ron Texas

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You're one of the coolest Doods around here @ ASR. I think anyway. You take no crap, deal out facts, are knowledgeable and state things right up front and center in clear English. What more could a peep want? LoL... :D
Thanks. I'm long on pragmatism, but a bit short on technical knowledge. Some of this stuff goes right over my head.
 

blueone

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Selling used LP, tape, or CD has never been seen as a copyright or license violation. What is breaking the law in the US and the EC is buying a CD, making copies, and then selling the copies. Making a derivative of the recording (like removing the vocals to make karaoke backgrounds) is also illegal.
I should amend my last sentence. Making a derivative of a recording and then selling copies of the derivative is illegal. Making a derivative for your personal use is not. And making exact copies for your personal use is legal too. (Gifts are not personal use, I'm told.)
 

DLS79

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And making exact copies for your personal use is legal too.

I remember when some people were trying really really hard to make that illegal as well.

For exmaple,

However, starting in 2008, the RIAA began claiming that
copyright infringement occurs well before an MP3 is actually
disseminated on a peer-to-peer network. 34 Starting with the case
Atlantic Recording Corp. v. Howell, the RIAA began asserting
that "it is illegal for someone who has legally purchased a CD to
transfer that music into his computer
. '35 The RIAA also brought
this theory up during the Capitol Records, Inc. v. Thomas case, in
which Sony BMG's chief of litigation claimed that "when an
individual makes a copy of the song for himself, I suppose we can
say he stole a song. Copying a song you bought is a nice way of
saying 'steals just one copy'.... "36 For some time, various
commentators advanced this theory as a good way to stop
piracy.37 However, these cases marked the first time that this
bold new theory was ever presented before a court. 38 Perhaps
somewhat wisely, the courts declined to comment on the RIAA's
new assertions and instead ruled that the defendants broke
copyright law by participating in peer-to-peer networks rather
than just by merely ripping their music CDs onto their computer
hard drives. 39 However, the courts noted that, while they intend
to proceed carefully, they are dealing with an open area of

copyright law in which they must make decisions without any
guidance from Congress.40
The implications of this undecided issue are potentially huge
for music fans. To date, millions of music fans have purchased
MP3 players, such as iPods.41 These music fans could lose a
major benefit in using their existing library of CDs for their MP3
players, and will have to essentially restart their music
libraries. 42 As a result, it is absolutely critical that if the courts
ever choose to rule on this issue, they rule carefully.
 
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Ron Texas

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I should amend my last sentence. Making a derivative of a recording and then selling copies of the derivative is illegal. Making a derivative for your personal use is not. And making exact copies for your personal use is legal too. (Gifts are not personal use, I'm told.)
The legal term is "fair use". Most of us have ripped CD's to a hard drive for convenience which is fair use as long as we don't give out or sell copies.
 

Ron Texas

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I'm learning a few things or more from you... :D Good things.
5PM Central Daylight time on Friday, happy hour, enjoy one...
 
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