Apple is forced to allow installation of 3rd party Apps (outside of their official store) in the EU

[Ron Texas]

https://www.newsmax.com/finance/streettalk/apple-doj-lawsuit/2024/03/21/id/1158050/

The US department of justice has filed an antitrust suit against Apple because of its walled garden business model. DOJ is probably looking for a result similar to the EU DMA without passing similar legislation.

 

[somebodyelse]

In related news: https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/21/meta_microsoft_x_match_pledge/ - others joining Epic in arguing Apple's changes to anti-steering terms still violate the injunction in that case.
Adding to their bad-news day, there's a sidechannel in their M processors that leaks things like private encryption keys: https://arstechnica.com/security/20...secret-encryption-keys-from-apples-mac-chips/ - although this puts them in the same boat as Intel, AMD and ARM have been in the past.

 

[Ron Texas]

@somebodyelse it appears the problem with cryptography is less severe on the new M3 chips and possibly a non issue. Even on the older CPU's the prospect of running cryptography on efficiency cores does not seem that bad. Maybe there is a bit of "the sky is falling" going on here. There is definitely a controversy regarding Apple's compliance with the EU DMA. I believe Apple is entitled to compensation for its efforts to keep the third party app sources safe. The question is how much and some other details. Personally, I believe competitors want to have it both ways. That is access to a premium hardware/software ecosystem which is superior due to its closed nature and not have to pay for it.
CNBC reports that Apple had 64% of the US smartphone market at the end of last year. If consumers have a strong preference for Apple, that's not a monopoly. One of the charges in the DOJ lawsuit is interoperability with Android messaging systems. Apple has already promised a fix for that. Another charge is the Apple Watch does not work on Android phones. I would point out Samsung cripples the ECG and blood pressure features of its smartwatch when used with non Samsung phones. The DOJ claim that Apple's walled garden worsens security is completely disingenuous.

 

[pablolie]

I don't think Apple customers will step outside the walled-Apple-garden - it's in fact what drives many to Apple. I am not an Apple customer (my GF is), but my behavior is the same... unless it's in Android's Play Store, I don't use the app.

 

[DLS79]

The DOJ claim that Apple's walled garden worsens security is completely disingenuous.

Lol, are we supposed to take your word on it?

 

[Ron Texas]

Lol, are we supposed to take your word on it?

You are getting pretty aggressive there. I would say the obvious answer is by filtering everything through the App Store security is increased. That is Apple's position. Maybe you could explain how the DOJ reached its conclusion. The 88 page complaint is out on the internet for you to read and report back to us. Make yourself useful instead of annoying.

 

[DLS79]

You are getting pretty aggressive there. I would say the obvious answer is by filtering everything through the App Store security is increased. That is Apple's position. Maybe you could explain how the DOJ reached its conclusion. The 88 page complaint is out on the internet for you to read and report back to us. Make yourself useful instead of annoying.

you are the one that said

The DOJ claim that Apple's walled garden worsens security is completely disingenuous.

Do you have any proof to back up your claim?

 

[Ron Texas]

you are the one that said

Do you have any proof to back up your claim?

I'm not making a claim. It's jut an opinion. I have already said Apple's well known position is the walled garden makes the iPhone more secure. It's obvious to a normal intelligent person. Stop badgering me.

 

[pablolie]

I'm not making a claim. It's jut an opinion. I have already said Apple's well known position is the walled garden makes the iPhone more secure. It's obvious to a normal intelligent person. Stop badgering me.

I support your opinion. I am not in the Apple ecosystem, but I have zero interest in side-loading an app by a developer I don't know. I think a sales channel that also verifies your app is safe is good for customers. The only reason developers don't like it is because of the cut that channel takes, so basically greed.

 

[DLS79]

I support your opinion. I am not in the Apple ecosystem, but I have zero interest in side-loading an app by a developer I don't know. I think a sales channel that also verifies your app is safe is good for customers. The only reason developers don't like it is because of the cut that channel takes, so basically greed.

I'm a developer by trade, and your argument has some issues imo.

While their are for sure companies (not really single developers), that take issue with Apple taking a substantial cut, that's is not the majority.

Imo, generally speaking there are 2 main issues with the walled garden concept, arrogance and complacency, and I have seen both from the company and it's user base.

First and foremost a walled garden can't keep people safe. Hackers always get in, and the ones that do are usually the good one's who are looking to do real damage! Not to mention the gardens security measures usually make it harder to catch said individuals.

for example this a good quote and article, and it covers some relevant topics at a high level.

Hackers are finding ways to hide inside Apple’s walled garden

The iPhone’s locked-down approach to security is spreading, but advanced hackers have found that higher barriers are great for avoiding capture.

www.technologyreview.com

“It’s a double-edged sword,” says Bill Marczak, a senior researcher at the cybersecurity watchdog Citizen Lab. “You’re going to keep out a lot of the riffraff by making it harder to break iPhones. But the 1% of top hackers are going to find a way in and, once they’re inside, the impenetrable fortress of the iPhone protects them.”

The second issue is the complacency of users. The "apple is better, and it keeps me safe" crowd!

this is from 2011 but it highlights a key issue that's even more prevalent today.

iPhone Users More Likely to Fall for Phishing Scams

iPhone users often like to think they’re smart, hip and on the cutting edge – but when it comes to falling for phishing scams, they may be more naïve than they think.

www.nbcnews.com

A survey conducted by anti-phishing software maker Trusteer, cited by the Help Net Security news site, found that as soon as a phishing server starts sending out e-mails, the first respondents to click on compromised links are using Web-enabled mobile phones.

Furthermore, mobile Internet users are three times more likely than desktop users to give their crucial personal information to scammers. Help Net Security points out that it’s often hard to see a link’s actual URL in a smartphone browser window, so mobile Internet users are essentially flying blind.

But that doesn’t explain why eight times as many iPhone than BlackBerry users click on fraudulent links, even though both phones display URLs poorly.

Help Net Security surmises that might be because many BlackBerrys are owned and operated by corporate clients who deploy protection and educate their users of online dangers, while almost all iPhones are in private hands — and thus, often fish in a barrel when it comes to falling for social-engineering scams.

phishing attacks, compromised wifi, etc do just as much damage if not more than a bad app! The best preventative measure is user education, and the walled garden indirectly prevents this because far to many users are lulled into a false sense of security.

As part of my job I regularly deal with saving said individuals from themselves.

 

[pablolie]

I'm a developer by trade, and your argument has some issues imo.

While their are for sure companies (not really single developers), that take issue with Apple taking a substantial cut, that's is not the majority.

Imo, generally speaking there are 2 main issues with the walled garden concept, arrogance and complacency, and I have seen both from the company and it's user base.

First and foremost a walled garden can't keep people safe. Hackers always get in, and the ones that do are usually the good one's who are looking to do real damage! Not to mention the gardens security measures usually make it harder to catch said individuals.

for example this a good quote and article, and it covers some relevant topics at a high level.

Hackers are finding ways to hide inside Apple’s walled garden

The iPhone’s locked-down approach to security is spreading, but advanced hackers have found that higher barriers are great for avoiding capture.

www.technologyreview.com

The second issue is the complacency of users. The "apple is better, and it keeps me safe" crowd!

this is from 2011 but it highlights a key issue that's even more prevalent today.

iPhone Users More Likely to Fall for Phishing Scams

iPhone users often like to think they’re smart, hip and on the cutting edge – but when it comes to falling for phishing scams, they may be more naïve than they think.

www.nbcnews.com

phishing attacks, compromised wifi, etc do just as much damage if not more than a bad app! The best preventative measure is user education, and the walled garden indirectly prevents this because far to many users are lulled into a false sense of security.

As part of my job I regularly deal with saving said individuals from themselves.

You make your point well - indeed walled gardens are not immune and can be an imaginary safe ground.

That said, you didn't get much into why a completely open environment is any safer.

PS: I am on occasional coder but mostly code reviewer when I get involved. We all know lots of our code is about reusability and importing libraries these days. Us coders may not be the best judges of security loopholes at times. We need those specialized in security to do a solid review and test run.

 

[blueone]

I'm a developer by trade, and your argument has some issues imo.

While their are for sure companies (not really single developers), that take issue with Apple taking a substantial cut, that's is not the majority.

Imo, generally speaking there are 2 main issues with the walled garden concept, arrogance and complacency, and I have seen both from the company and it's user base.

First and foremost a walled garden can't keep people safe. Hackers always get in, and the ones that do are usually the good one's who are looking to do real damage! Not to mention the gardens security measures usually make it harder to catch said individuals.

for example this a good quote and article, and it covers some relevant topics at a high level.

Hackers are finding ways to hide inside Apple’s walled garden

The iPhone’s locked-down approach to security is spreading, but advanced hackers have found that higher barriers are great for avoiding capture.

www.technologyreview.com

This is not a technical article, not by a long shot. Ignore the BS "MIT Technology Review" association; most of their articles are more agenda than technical. The article even has a quote in it that "IOS is incredibly secure", without any supporting evidence.

The second issue is the complacency of users. The "apple is better, and it keeps me safe" crowd!

this is from 2011 but it highlights a key issue that's even more prevalent today.

iPhone Users More Likely to Fall for Phishing Scams

iPhone users often like to think they’re smart, hip and on the cutting edge – but when it comes to falling for phishing scams, they may be more naïve than they think.

www.nbcnews.com

I've never met anyone outside of the computer architecture field who even has an opinion about whether IOS is more secure than Android. The strongest opinion I've heard about Apple is that Apple supports their hardware for years longer than any Android phone supplier does, and recently longer for Macs than Microsoft does for PCs. Also, Macs and iPhones don't ship with bloatware. Samsung phones, for example, apparently still do. (Are they crazy?) This seems to really piss people off. As for complacency, I've known several people who were complacent, until they suffer an attack of some sort, and then they get password managers or hardware passkeys, and use VPNs after they talk to me.

phishing attacks, compromised wifi, etc do just as much damage if not more than a bad app! The best preventative measure is user education, and the walled garden indirectly prevents this because far too many users are lulled into a false sense of security.

As part of my job I regularly deal with saving said individuals from themselves.

Perhaps, but on a phone nothing is worse than a malicious app, especially if the silly user gives the app permission to access all of the storage, the microphone, and the camera, and perhaps even contacts.

 

[Ron Texas]

I want to make it clear that I don't agree with either the EU DMA or the US DOJ interpretation, both of which are similar. Apple is not a public utility. Despite their popularity they are not a monopoly. Nobody is forced to buy an iPhone. There are other brands which will get them on any carrier's network. There are apps which allow iPhones to communicate with Android phones. The problem is not traditional antitrust law but ideological. It's bunch of sore loser developers and service providers like
Spotify who want free access to the walled garden. This system is what has made the iPhone so popular. It may not be foolproof but it's a hell of a lot better than allowing side loading. Asian app stores are loaded with malicious apps for those dumb enough to side load them.

 

[DLS79]

That said, you didn't get much into why a completely open environment is any safer.

None of them are completely open, Goggle and Microsoft are actively moving towards more closed systems. I'd assume predominantly because of market/ users forces.

PS: I am on occasional coder but mostly code reviewer when I get involved. We all know lots of our code is about reusability and importing libraries these days. Us coders may not be the best judges of security loopholes at times. We need those specialized in security to do a solid review and test run.

My official "title" is systems engineer, but I'm still a developer who's focus is server/web applications, just with more experience and knowledge than a lot of my younger peers. I'm generally the guy who designs systems, apis, and frameworks from scratch. I'm the stickler that says no a lot, because something has a vulnerability, is non performant, or just piss poorly written.

 

[DLS79]

The article even has a quote in it that "IOS is incredibly secure", without any supporting evidence.

Secure doesn't mean invulnerable, as you can see in this part of the article they discuss an exploit Marczak (who i was quoting, and made the comment you quoted) was investigating at the time.

Sometimes the locked-down system can backfire even more directly. When Apple released a new version of iOS last summer in the middle of Marczak’s investigation, the phone’s new security features killed an unauthorized “jailbreak” tool Citizen Lab used to open up the iPhone. The update locked him out of the private areas of the phone, including a folder for new updates—which turned out to be exactly where hackers were hiding.

Also, Macs and iPhones don't ship with bloatware. Samsung phones, for example, apparently still do. (Are they crazy?)

What's bloatware and what's not very much depends on who you are asking!

for example.

I used to think Chinese phones had too much bloatware - until I used an iPhone

iOS? More like iOmeSs

www.techradar.com

I don't review iPhones, and I haven't owned one since a second-hand iPhone 6 I inherited from my mum about a hundred years ago. I just got an iPhone 13 Pro though, to do a camera comparison with the Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra, and saw something I totally didn't expect: a horrible amount of bloatware.

I haven't installed a single app on this iPhone, and the home screen is already cluttered with loads of stuff.


The first page is super busy with stuff like FaceTime, Apple TV, Maps, Health, News, Podcasts, Wallet, Reminders, and the apps even spill onto a second home page with Books, Translate, Stocks, Tips, whatever Shortcuts is, Home, Find My, iTunes Store, and a folder with even more apps in it.


Why would Apple think that, if I was interested in stocks, I wouldn't be able to download an app for it? That I need them to pre-install it for me?

Loads of these pre-installed apps make the bold assumption that I'm already deep into the Apple ecosystem. Things like Apple TV, Home and Watch all assume I've already given the company plenty of my money.

you can find complaints on the apple support community as well.

How to get rid of Apple bloatware, like s… - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

Delete Apple preinstalled Bloatware - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

iphone bloatware site:discussions.apple.com - Google Search

Google iPhone bloatware or something similar and you will get a lot of results!

 

[DLS79]

This system is what has made the iPhone so popular. It may not be foolproof but it's a hell of a lot better than allowing side loading. Asian app stores are loaded with malicious apps for those dumb enough to side load them.

I feel compelled to ask, do you own apple stock?

 

[Doodski]

Perhaps, but on a phone nothing is worse than a malicious app, especially if the silly user gives the app permission to access all of the storage, the microphone, and the camera, and perhaps even contacts.

I am not @ all cel tel literate. I take the odd call on my cel tel, use my VOIP tel for most of my calls at home, do not use apps on the cel tel and never surf and in fact the only real function it serves for me is as a YouTube Premium account music player. I do have WhatsApp for a chat friend use. Is WhatsApp OK security wise?

 

[Ron Texas]

I feel compelled to ask, do you own apple stock?

That's none of your business. Apple's large capitalization and its presence in the three large market averages means nearly everyone with a retirement account owns a little. I believe what Apple has done is good for the consumer and US economy The EU DMA and DOJ actions are destructive and the product of improper motivations. As a developer your economic interest in breaking down the walled garden is clear. Most of my family uses iPhones and I have a Mac which is so much better than any WinTel machine I have owned or tried that it isn't funny. I have been through a bunch of WinTel notebooks in the last 18 months. One died, several others were returned and one was demoted to a music server because it wasn't stable enough for general use. My iPhone is vastly superior to any Android phone I have owned. I got screwed with a Pixel 4 getting only 2.5 years support on a $500 phone (after carrier discounts). My last LG took blurry pictures. No wonder they quit the business. I view Apple as an island of quality in a sea of garbage.

 

[DLS79]

As a developer your economic interest in breaking down the walled garden is clear.

It seems you either didn't read or don't understand what I do, because I'm not that type of developer! I work on server software, that can be accessed by anyone from any machine with an internet connection and a browser. The walled gardens existence or lack of has no "economic" impact on me.

My issue with the "walled garden" and Apple as a whole is philosophical/cultural. In my opinion Apple's products and general business practices perpetuate dumb users, lazy, users, and rampant consumerism!

 

[Ron Texas]

My issue with the "walled garden" and Apple as a whole is philosophical/cultural. In my opinion Apple's products and general business practices perpetuate dumb users, lazy, users, and rampant consumerism!

I disagree in spades and your attitude shows you think you are so much better than the average person, and that everyone but those like you are dumb and lazy. You will not get my nice guy award.