Anyone using minidsp SHD with additional DAC

[spaace]

Hi friends,

I have a tough problem for which i would like some advice.

I have a 2.1 setup in my smallish bedroom and use a Bemchmark DAC3 as the preamp, as a source selector and also as source to feed my subs, an svs 2000

The balanced outs on the DAC3 goes to the amp and it plays my floorstanders, kef r3 full range. (These do not extend to the low range a lot at all).

It's all good though at times the low end seems too boomy - maybe it's the untreated room but I havent gone past that since I do not have much placement options in there.

I have been wondering whether the bass integration can improve with a crossover, and with DIRAC maybe, with something like the minidsp products but I do not want to lose my current gear as I bought it as an end of all upgrades for me.

So iam wondering if I got a minidsp shd, I can get the digital out and feed it to my Dac3 and play the analog outs from the shd directly to the sub

I do not know enough about clocks and delays but if someone could advice how best to go about this, with an explanation of the science, I would appreciate it very much thank you.

 

[waynel]

Hi friends,

I have a tough problem for which i would like some advice.

I have a 2.1 setup in my smallish bedroom and use a Bemchmark DAC3 as the preamp, as a source selector and also as source to feed my subs, an svs 2000

The balanced outs on the DAC3 goes to the amp and it plays my floorstanders, kef r3 full range. (These do not extend to the low range a lot at all).

It's all good though at times the low end seems too boomy - maybe it's the untreated room but I havent gone past that since I do not have much placement options in there.

I have been wondering whether the bass integration can improve with a crossover, and with DIRAC maybe, with something like the minidsp products but I do not want to lose my current gear as I bought it as an end of all upgrades for me.

So iam wondering if I got a minidsp shd, I can get the digital out and feed it to my Dac3 and play the analog outs from the shd directly to the sub

I do not know enough about clocks and delays but if someone could advice how best to go about this, with an explanation of the science, I would appreciate it very much thank you.

That would work fine but why would you need the DAC3 at all in this case? If you keep the DAC3 you will want to use the SHD for source selection and volume control. The SHD will help you fix both your bass management and your room correction issues. I use the SHD studio with and Okto DAC8 pro but the studio does not have built in dacs.

 

[spaace]

That would work fine but why would you need the DAC3 at all in this case? The SHD will help you fix both your bass management and your room correction issues. .

Thank you for replying wayne.

Oh I want to stick to DAC3 for the supposed intersample peaks benefits that they claim and any synergy benefits if possible with my amp, which is Benchmark too.

But mainly coz it's a sturdy piece of gear I bought after lots of research and due to the couple of wasted dacs I have with me now I do not want to go into another buying mode again.

Where would the volume control be, in the setup i proposed and why are clocks synch not an issue in this setup ?

Would the music produced be in sync coming out from both the dacs ?

 

[mdsimon2]

Thank you for replying wayne.

Oh I want to stick to DAC3 for the supposed intersample peaks benefits that they claim and any synergy benefits if possible with my amp, which is Benchmark too.

But mainly coz it's a sturdy piece of gear I bought after lots of research and due to the couple of wasted dacs I have with me now I do not want to go into another buying mode again.

Where would the volume control be, in the setup i proposed and why are clocks synch not an issue in this setup ?

Would the music produced be in sync coming out from both the dacs ?

As mentioned previously you need to use the SHD for volume control.

There will not be clock sync issues because the DAC3 will lock to the embedded clock signal in the SPDIF output from the SHD. However, there will likely be a small latency difference between the SHD DAC output and the Benchmark DAC output. You could use the delay of the SHD to eliminate this latency difference but you would need a way to measure the latency difference to know what delay to add. I described an approach how to measure this using an ADC here -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../okto-dac8-pro-alternative.25486/post-1006531.

Although I should say that the latency differences are likely small (<0.1 ms) which means they should be relatively inconsequential for subwoofer integration.

Michael

 

[waynel]

Thank you for replying wayne.

Oh I want to stick to DAC3 for the supposed intersample peaks benefits that they claim and any synergy benefits if possible with my amp, which is Benchmark too.

But mainly coz it's a sturdy piece of gear I bought after lots of research and due to the couple of wasted dacs I have with me now I do not want to go into another buying mode again.

Where would the volume control be, in the setup i proposed and why are clocks synch not an issue in this setup ?

Would the music produced be in sync coming out from both the dacs ?

You would control the volume and the input selection with the SHD. There is no benefit* nor harm in keeping the DAC3 as just the DAC. No issues sync or timing. intersample overs is not an issue especially since you will be using digital volume control in the SHD.

* the one possible benefit of keeping the DAC3 is that you can keep the AHB2 in the lowest gain mode if you want.

btw, I use AHB2's in my main system and formally used the DAC3 as well (now replaced with Okto DAC8 PRO)

 

[waynel]

As mentioned previously you need to use the SHD for volume control.

There will not be clock sync issues because the DAC3 will lock to the embedded clock signal in the SPDIF output from the SHD. However, there will likely be a small latency difference between the SHD DAC output and the Benchmark DAC output. You could use the delay of the SHD to eliminate this latency difference but you would need a way to measure the latency difference to know what delay to add. I described an approach how to measure this using an ADC here -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../okto-dac8-pro-alternative.25486/post-1006531.

Although I should say that the latency differences are likely small (<0.1 ms) which means they should be relatively inconsequential for subwoofer integration.

Michael

No need to measure, its 0.82ms when used with the SHD digital output. Just delay your subs by that amount in the plugin. Benchmark defines the latency (it's too small to notice anyway)

Benchmark DAC3 HGC - Digital to Analog Audio Converter

The DAC3 HGC is currently shipping from stock. Overview A New Reference - Going Beyond the Legendary DAC1 and DAC2 The DAC3 is Benchmark's newest 2-channel D/A converter featuring the new ESS Technologies ES9028PRO converter chip. The DAC3 converter has lower THD and THD+N noise than Benchmark's...

benchmarkmedia.com

GROUP DELAY (LATENCY)​
Delay – Digital Input to Analog Output (function of sample rate)	1.36 ms at 44.1 kHz 1.27 ms at 48 kHz 0.90 ms at 88.2 kHz 0.82 ms at 96 kHz 0.51 ms at 176.4 kHz 0.47 ms at 192 kHz

 

[spaace]

btw, I use AHB2's in my main system and formally used the DAC3 as well (now replaced with Okto DAC8 PRO)

Lucky me ... I know we are in ASR forum but can't help ask, how would you compare the 3 dacs ? Do they sound the same ?

I assume since you went from DAC3 to Okto you had to move away from the low gain mode on your ABH2 ... Did it produce any audible differences ?

 

[waynel]

Lucky me ... I know we are in ASR forum but can't help ask, how would you compare the 3 dacs ? Do they sound the same ?

I assume since you went from DAC3 to Okto you had to move away from the low gain mode on your ABH2 ... Did it produce any audible differences ?

All 3 sound the same. I use the middle gain mode and hear no noise.

 

[mdsimon2]

No need to measure, its 0.82ms when used with the SHD digital output. Just delay your subs by that amount in the plugin. Benchmark defines the latency (it's too small to notice anyway)

Benchmark DAC3 HGC - Digital to Analog Audio Converter

The DAC3 HGC is currently shipping from stock. Overview A New Reference - Going Beyond the Legendary DAC1 and DAC2 The DAC3 is Benchmark's newest 2-channel D/A converter featuring the new ESS Technologies ES9028PRO converter chip. The DAC3 converter has lower THD and THD+N noise than Benchmark's...

benchmarkmedia.com

GROUP DELAY (LATENCY)​
Delay – Digital Input to Analog Output (function of sample rate)	1.36 ms at 44.1 kHz 1.27 ms at 48 kHz 0.90 ms at 88.2 kHz 0.82 ms at 96 kHz 0.51 ms at 176.4 kHz 0.47 ms at 192 kHz

Likely still some delay difference between the SHD DAC and SPDIF out -> Benchmark DAC but agree that 0.82 ms will get you in the ballpark.

Michael

 

[spaace]

No need to measure, its 0.82ms when used with the SHD digital output. Just delay your subs by that amount in the plugin. Benchmark defines the latency (it's too small to notice anyway)

Benchmark DAC3 HGC - Digital to Analog Audio Converter

The DAC3 HGC is currently shipping from stock. Overview A New Reference - Going Beyond the Legendary DAC1 and DAC2 The DAC3 is Benchmark's newest 2-channel D/A converter featuring the new ESS Technologies ES9028PRO converter chip. The DAC3 converter has lower THD and THD+N noise than Benchmark's...

benchmarkmedia.com

GROUP DELAY (LATENCY)​
Delay – Digital Input to Analog Output (function of sample rate)	1.36 ms at 44.1 kHz 1.27 ms at 48 kHz 0.90 ms at 88.2 kHz 0.82 ms at 96 kHz 0.51 ms at 176.4 kHz 0.47 ms at 192 kHz

Oh cool that's a relief ... But would it be possible to set the delay to be dynamic depending on the signal since it does seem to be varying based on the data you have posted ?

And since no one has adviced me against going with the crossover idea, I assume all this will be worth the trouble ?

 

[waynel]

Oh cool that's a relief ... But would it be possible to set the delay to be dynamic depending on the signal since it does seem to be varying based on the data you have posted ?

And since no one has advices me against going with the crossover idea, I assume all this will be worth the trouble ?

Crossover (and room correction) is absolutely the right idea and the number 1 thing to do to improve your system (#2 is adding a second sub). I believe that the SHD will always output 96kHz for the digital out so no need to change the delay based on input signal.

From Page 12 of the SHD manual

Digital outputs. Connect external DACs or other digital equipment using RCA SPDIF. These outputs each carry a stereo signal. The data format is 24-bit 96 kHz. Connected equipment must therefore be able to accept a 24-bit 96 kHz input signal. Note: if using two different DACs, you may need to adjust the time delay on the output channels accordingly

 

[spaace]

No need to measure, its 0.82ms when used with the SHD digital output. Just delay your subs by that amount in the plugin. Benchmark defines the latency (it's too small to notice anyway)

Oh wait ..but wouldn't the analog out that goes to the sub from the SHD be produced via SHD's own internal DAC and wouldn't that introduce its own delay ?

So would it be just the delay from DAC3's processing ?

 

[waynel]

Oh wait ..but wouldn't the analog out that goes to the sub from the SHD be produced via SHD's own internal DAC and wouldn't that introduce its own delay ?

So would it be just the delay from DAC3's processing ?

You would delay the subs by (0.82ms minus the delay between digital outs and analog outs for the SHD - ask MiniDSP what this is)

The differences that we are talking about is equivalent to your sub being less than a foot closer.

 

[MCH]

General question: some (most?) Subs have their own internal adc/dsp/dac that i don't know if there is a way to bypass or is always there. In this case, isn't it better to measure the overall delay no matter how little delay produces the dac3?

 

[mdsimon2]

General question: some (most?) Subs have their own internal adc/dsp/dac that i don't know if there is a way to bypass or is always there. In this case, isn't it better to measure the overall delay no matter how little delay produces the dac3?

One of the reasons I like dumb passive DIY subs.

I am a big fan of getting the best possible theoretical phase alignment alignment between my subs and main speakers before even attempting to do any sort of room correction, Linkwitz describes some of the implications here -> https://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_5.htm.

But yes, if you have an active sub then measurement becomes harder and would need to be acoustic. If I was the OP I would just use the SHD without the Benchmark DAC3 as this is the simplest solution. Otherwise if I did use the DAC3 I would apply a 0.82 ms delay to the sub out as suggested by @waynel and be happy.

Michael

 

[MCH]

One of the reasons I like dumb passive DIY subs.

I am a big fan of getting the best possible theoretical phase alignment alignment between my subs and main speakers before even attempting to do any sort of room correction, Linkwitz describes some of the implications here -> https://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_5.htm.

But yes, if you have an active sub then measurement becomes harder and would need to be acoustic. If I was the OP I would just use the SHD without the Benchmark DAC3 as this is the simplest solution. Otherwise if I did use the DAC3 I would apply a 0.82 ms delay to the sub out as suggested by @waynel and be happy.

Michael

OPs svs 2000, if it is any similar to the 1000 I have, does have adc/dac
Thanks for the reference

 

[spaace]

But yes, if you have an active sub then measurement becomes harder and would need to be acoustic. If I was the OP I would just use the SHD without the Benchmark DAC3 as this is the simplest solution. Otherwise if I did use the DAC3 I would apply a 0.82 ms delay to the sub out as suggested by @waynel and be happy.

Michael

The svs does amplification but need not perform ADC/DAC looking at the inputs it has. It does allow you to correct the phase and has filters to perform low pass correction. Not sure if that requires a DAC

https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-2000

Regarding your recommendation to use minidsp shd though. Yes that does seem the best option here. It's just that I seem to be locked into minidsp shd with that option. By going with separates I was hoping to have some flexibility wrt upgrades.

Are there other products that can do the same thing ?

Thank you.

 

[MCH]

The svs does amplification but need not perform ADC/DAC looking at the inputs it has. It does allow you to correct the phase and has filters to perform low pass correction. Not sure if that requires a DAC

@space have a look here (scroll down to the second half of post #1):

https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...s-sb-1000-inside-pics-personal-thoughts.7842/

 

[spaace]

@space have a look here (scroll down to the second half of post #1):

https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...s-sb-1000-inside-pics-personal-thoughts.7842/

I checked with svs online support and they said their woofers are completely analog.

However they wanted to reply back with some confirmation about the phase change and delay questions if any from the woofer itself which we were doubtful about, and will be getting back to me. I will post the data back here.

 

[waynel]

I checked with svs online support and they said their woofers are completely analog.

However they wanted to reply back with some confirmation about the phase change and delay questions if any from the woofer itself which we were doubtful about, and will be getting back to me. I will post the data back here.

I think you should not worry about delays, just set to crossovers for 4th order at 80hz and tweak the phase and level of the sub to see if you can get a smooth response near the crossover frequency. Then run Dirac. Done.