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Anyone integrated Genelec 8030 + SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer - without an external crossover/DSP?

Zeeb

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After obsessive ASR reading I have pretty much decided I will add an SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer to my Genelec 8030Cs
(my first subwoofer, just for music entertainment).

(I'm in Australia where several ASR suggestions like Rythmik, HSU and Speedwoofer aren't available.)

Has anyone successfully integrated and possibly measured a pair of Genelec 8030Cs with an SVS SB-1000 Pro? Or can anyone offer any thoughts about my options below...

I am running off a DAC with no sub-out or bass management.

Important info I've found:
  • (Option 1) The Genelec 8030C has a Bass Roll-Off DIP switch which according to an ASR member can act as a high-pass filter to the main speakers.
the early roll off switch on the 8030 gives a 12dB/oct LR slope centered at 85Hz. You only need to find a sub with a 12dB/oct lowpass filter; there's no need to look for one that offers a highpass because the speakers can do it.
[from https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udio-monitor-review.14795/page-25#post-546955]

See the bottom green line below - does this look like a standard 12dB high pass filter? The Genelec manual only mentions using it for room correction.
Genelec 8030 Bass Roll-Off DIP switch.JPG


So option 1 is I use this DIP switch and then dial the SB-1000 Pro's low pass filter to around 85Hz (or maybe higher, eg 120Hz, as suggested at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udio-monitor-review.14795/page-29#post-577285),

and learn to tune the different SB-1000 Pro options like PEQ, phase.

Note that Genelec's own 7050C subwoofer sets a default high pass output filter at 85Hz to the main speakers - the second green line down:
Genelec 7050C frequency response.JPG


I will at some point learn how to use a measurement microphone to help with this, but I don't foresee putting the time and money into an external crossover or DSP solution unless I find I'm not really happy with the results.

  • Option 2: The SVS Subwoofer Matching Tool suggests (for the Genelec 8030) setting the subwoofer crossover at 58Hz with a low pass filter slope of 12dB. That is, only using the subwoofer below the natural bass roll-off frequency of the Genelecs.
The rationale for this is stated here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ng-about-a-subwoofer.25717/page-2#post-878555
and here https://rel.net/blog/2021-03-24/pri...high-pass-filter-and-why-doesnt-rel-use-them/

Another ASR thread discussing a different rationale with higher crossover points, even up to 200 Hz (needs an external crossover), can be found here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/subwoofer-choosing.15740/

I usually won't be playing loud, so I'm hoping I'll be able to get option 1 or 2 to work well. If I'm lucky, option 1 should allow very loud anyway (in my small 4 x 3.6m living room).

Any thoughts or suggestions about these options?
 
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Zeeb

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The other subwoofer that seems to fit the bill (but stretches the budget) is the Dynaudio 9S studio subwoofer.
Might this be superior to the SVS SB-1000 Pro, considering I'll mainly be using it for music, not TV/movies?
 

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I used to use the Bass Roll-Off DIP on the 8341A when I didn't have a proper high pass crossover. I uploaded my in-room measurements taken back then. I don't remember whether these measurements were taken when Dirac room correction was engaged (it probably was because the responses were pretty flat), but you can still see what the roll-off DIP does. I think it works as a temporary solution.
 

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Glen20

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After obsessive ASR reading I have pretty much decided I will add an SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer to my Genelec 8030Cs
(my first subwoofer, just for music entertainment).

(I'm in Australia where several ASR suggestions like Rythmik, HSU and Speedwoofer aren't available.)

Has anyone successfully integrated and possibly measured a pair of Genelec 8030Cs with an SVS SB-1000 Pro? Or can anyone offer any thoughts about my options below...

I am running off a DAC with no sub-out or bass management.

Important info I've found:
  • (Option 1) The Genelec 8030C has a Bass Roll-Off DIP switch which according to an ASR member can act as a high-pass filter to the main speakers.

[from https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udio-monitor-review.14795/page-25#post-546955]

See the bottom green line below - does this look like a standard 12dB high pass filter? The Genelec manual only mentions using it for room correction.
View attachment 182656

So option 1 is I use this DIP switch and then dial the SB-1000 Pro's low pass filter to around 85Hz (or maybe higher, eg 120Hz, as suggested at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udio-monitor-review.14795/page-29#post-577285),

and learn to tune the different SB-1000 Pro options like PEQ, phase.

Note that Genelec's own 7050C subwoofer sets a default high pass output filter at 85Hz to the main speakers - the second green line down:
View attachment 182659

I will at some point learn how to use a measurement microphone to help with this, but I don't foresee putting the time and money into an external crossover or DSP solution unless I find I'm not really happy with the results.

  • Option 2: The SVS Subwoofer Matching Tool suggests (for the Genelec 8030) setting the subwoofer crossover at 58Hz with a low pass filter slope of 12dB. That is, only using the subwoofer below the natural bass roll-off frequency of the Genelecs.
The rationale for this is stated here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ng-about-a-subwoofer.25717/page-2#post-878555
and here https://rel.net/blog/2021-03-24/pri...high-pass-filter-and-why-doesnt-rel-use-them/

Another ASR thread discussing a different rationale with higher subwoofer crossover points, even up to 200 Hz (needs an external crossover), can be found here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/subwoofer-choosing.15740/

I usually won't be playing loud, so I'm hoping I'll be able to get option 1 or 2 to work well. If I'm lucky, option 1 should allow very loud anyway.

Any thoughts or suggestions for SB-1000 Pro subwoofer settings? What about trying different crossover points or slope from the options above?
Thanks for your effort Zeeb.
I have the same needs in NZ.
I am wanting to add bass to my 8030c and take away the occasionally distorted base.( so possibly not the no HPF route)
For music only ,using SMSL SU-9n dac ( yes 2 equal outputs xlr and rca)Only one listening position.
I was reading about jbl lsr310s today. Which has option of flat or 80hz or 120hz( 10db boost at 60hz 1/2octave band) but no remote so switching the switch may be a pain.

748B3641-BE8B-484B-B0C9-7C385D3BE0D7.jpeg
For DIY dayton dsp plate amp and ultimax dvc subwoofer
At the loudspeakerkit.com based in Australia is half the price of that nice looking Dynaudio but with a much bigger driver
3B86D223-AF94-4273-ABE5-854E25A43F68.png

I presume that there is a risk of the HPF distorting and degrading the signal to the 8030c the cheaper the subwoofer is??
The only other subs I have seen available with xlr or trs out Under the price of the Dynaudios are the
10” Mackie’s and the
presonus sub8s at around $500 each
Thanks again Zeeb
Happy to be shot down/educated by anyone really
 
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Zeeb

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I used to use the Bass Roll-Off DIP on the 8341A when I didn't have a proper high pass crossover. I uploaded my in-room measurements taken back then. I don't remember whether these measurements were taken when Dirac room correction was engaged (it probably was because the responses were pretty flat), but you can still see what the roll-off DIP does. I think it works as a temporary solution.

Thanks, looks like it rolled off faster at first in your case (at least at lower volume), but I guess this Genelec Bass Roll-Off feature could work as a HPF, unlike the Bass Tilt.

The slope options on the SB-1000 Pro might help to flatten it, but could be too course.

The SVS guy suggested a passive crossover or miniDSP if Option 2 isn't good enough, but that might only be necessary at higher volumes (at least for entertainment use). The SVS tool doesn't take into account Option 1, but I could email them to see what they think.
 
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Zeeb

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Thanks for your effort Zeeb.
I have the same needs in NZ.
I am wanting to add bass to my 8030c and take away the occasionally distorted base.

No worries, I thought my notes would be useful to some people (and to myself). I went through the whole 57-page 8030 review thread looking for "sub".

I tried turning up the youtube test track in the first post of the review thread, "The Dunwells - Animal". https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/genelec-8030c-studio-monitor-review.14795/

The distortion didn't sound as bad to me as the "static and clear distortion" described. The Bass Roll-Off did seem to fix this (high volume) distortion though, so I'm excited to see what a sub can do.

From ASR posts, several 500+USD subwoofer options seem to be accurate and powerful enough to take over the Genelec bass at an 85Hz crossover - but I'm a bit reluctant to chop off too much Genelec around 50-100Hz, so I'll be curious to compare the 58Hz crossover as well (not that I have a trained ear). Will reply more tomorrow.
 
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Zeeb

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jbl lsr310s ...

The only S other subs I have seen available with xlr or trs out Under the price of the Dynaudios are the
10” Mackie’s and the presonus sub8s at around $500 each

When I researched what was available last week I decided I was willing to sacrifice balanced XLR/TRS for more options with lower bass extension. I tried connecting the Genelecs unbalanced, and only one speaker has slightly audible noise when the room is silent (the DAC helps a lot - it was too noisy straight from the PC sound card).

I could live with this noise but think I can do better by getting proper braided-shield cables (RCA to XLR) and maybe looking into other ground loop noise solutions.

(Another advantage for me is I can use the XLR outputs on my DAC to run simultaneous wired sound to my dining/kitchen area without a line level booster or noise problems out there. The subwoofer should even enhance the sound in that room through the doorway.)

+

JBL LSR310S - I'd much prefer something under 15 inches tall (38cm) that will fit under my TV table, so I ruled it out. Also it's down-firing which someone said is harder to tune, and bass doesn't start till 27Hz (enough for most music I guess).

Dynaudio 9S - I could get it for around $1275 (900USD) but it seems to be out of stock in Australia at the moment. That is getting close to the price of the Genelec 7040 sub. And it doesn't have a grille. The consumer version of the Dynaudio 9S - the Sub 3 - is $2200! (only difference seems to be unbalanced I/O and it has a grille)...

The 9S specs look great and it has a 60Hz or 80Hz high-pass for the main speakers, but it doesn't have the PEQ, slope and phase controls of the SB-1000 Pro - so it might be harder to integrate. If someone convinced me it sounded definitely better than the SB-1000 Pro I'd have to consider it, even though it would mean I'd have to make some kind of U-shaped stiff mesh grille to put around it (please God no).

Presonus 8 and 10 inch - might be good budget options but I didn't look into them much as luckily I can stretch my budget to the $900 (600USD) SB-1000 Pro.

Mackie 10 inch - only starts at 35Hz. Maybe this could be a more neighbour-friendly solution to extending bass.

(This link talks a bit about the frequencies in electronic music. Looking at the graphs, you might not be missing out on much if your system does 30Hz+ well: https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=1019.0)
 
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Glen20

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Thanks Zeeb
That was very helpful.
I will go analyse some music to see what I have been missing out on.

If you dont have a cable guy. https://www.swamp.net.au
Has good selection of Cables. From mogmai , canare , own brand and Diy way cheaper than over here.

I just bought a 10 plug power board. So everything is plugged into the same socket. Rather than the extension cord death trap I had previously.

I am not into stomach churning base. I went to Fabric Live once in London. I couldn’t handle the bass. Never had a problem at any other gig. Even Many others at fabric. So I wont be aiming that low or intense I think.

Thanks again
G
 
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Zeeb

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Thanks, I need cables, will check it out. Fabric sounds crazy, "sections of the floor are attached to 400 bass transducers".

For anyone comparing subs, see the spreadsheet at

I should learn how to use the spreadsheet filters; I might have missed a few options.
 
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Zeeb

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I found out some more info that could help with integrating a subwoofer with the 8030 and posted about it in the main Genelec 8030C thread.

The Bass Roll-Off switch was like an 85Hz high-pass filter on the 8030A and 8030B - but on the 8030C it's more like a 55Hz high-pass filter:
 
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ferrellms

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After obsessive ASR reading I have pretty much decided I will add an SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer to my Genelec 8030Cs
(my first subwoofer, just for music entertainment).

(I'm in Australia where several ASR suggestions like Rythmik, HSU and Speedwoofer aren't available.)

Has anyone successfully integrated and possibly measured a pair of Genelec 8030Cs with an SVS SB-1000 Pro? Or can anyone offer any thoughts about my options below...

I am running off a DAC with no sub-out or bass management.

Important info I've found:
  • (Option 1) The Genelec 8030C has a Bass Roll-Off DIP switch which according to an ASR member can act as a high-pass filter to the main speakers.

[from https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udio-monitor-review.14795/page-25#post-546955]

See the bottom green line below - does this look like a standard 12dB high pass filter? The Genelec manual only mentions using it for room correction.
View attachment 182656

So option 1 is I use this DIP switch and then dial the SB-1000 Pro's low pass filter to around 85Hz (or maybe higher, eg 120Hz, as suggested at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udio-monitor-review.14795/page-29#post-577285),

and learn to tune the different SB-1000 Pro options like PEQ, phase.

Note that Genelec's own 7050C subwoofer sets a default high pass output filter at 85Hz to the main speakers - the second green line down:
View attachment 182659

I will at some point learn how to use a measurement microphone to help with this, but I don't foresee putting the time and money into an external crossover or DSP solution unless I find I'm not really happy with the results.

  • Option 2: The SVS Subwoofer Matching Tool suggests (for the Genelec 8030) setting the subwoofer crossover at 58Hz with a low pass filter slope of 12dB. That is, only using the subwoofer below the natural bass roll-off frequency of the Genelecs.
The rationale for this is stated here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ng-about-a-subwoofer.25717/page-2#post-878555
and here https://rel.net/blog/2021-03-24/pri...high-pass-filter-and-why-doesnt-rel-use-them/

Another ASR thread discussing a different rationale with higher crossover points, even up to 200 Hz (needs an external crossover), can be found here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/subwoofer-choosing.15740/

I usually won't be playing loud, so I'm hoping I'll be able to get option 1 or 2 to work well. If I'm lucky, option 1 should allow very loud anyway (in my small 4 x 3.6m living room).

Any thoughts or suggestions about these options?
I have the 8040As and the previous SVS SB-1000 sub. I just use the internal active xover in the sub and filter out all the low bass going to the 8040s which increases overall system headroom a lot. (Before I was rolling off the 8040s instead of truly biamping with the active xover and they would bottom out on occasion.) Then I EQ the entire system. I'd try this first before making things complicated and buying stuff. Biamping with active xovers works, as has been known for decades.
 
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Zeeb

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I have the 8040As and the previous SVS SB-1000 sub. I just use the internal active xover in the sub and filter out all the low bass going to the 8040s which increases overall system headroom a lot. (Before I was rolling off the 8040s instead of truly biamping with the active xover and they would bottom out on occasion.) Then I EQ the entire system. I'd try this first before making things complicated and buying stuff. Biamping with active xovers works, as has been known for decades.
Maybe you don't know - the new SVS subs like the SB-1000 Pro don't have a high-pass filter on their outputs to the main speakers. The outputs are just a full range pass-through I think without any DSP delay or anything I guess.

Not sure what you mean by, "Before I was rolling off the 8040s instead of truly biamping with the active xover". In what way were you rolling off that made it not fully biamped?
 
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Zeeb

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Note that Genelec's own 7050C subwoofer sets a default high pass output filter at 85Hz to the main speakers - the second green line down
Correction: the second green line down is not the high-pass at 85Hz; it shows the default subwoofer low-pass slope (85Hz at 24dB/octave?)
 
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waynel

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Why not just get a minidsp flex balanced. That's what I'm using with my KH120s and SVS SB1000 Pros and it works great.
 

Walter

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Why not just get a minidsp flex balanced. That's what I'm using with my KH120s and SVS SB1000 Pros and it works great.
It also costs about 25% more than just the speakers + subs, so that would be be one consideration if it were me (and I'm actively considering the OP's same combo). He also already has a DAC that he may want to keep. However, it is a good suggestion if neither of these points is a major issue.
 

YSC

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doint the bass roll off and use it as a 85hz crossover seems fine, but I would say it's best get a UMIK 1 and do measurements, not for the DSP, but you will know how your speaker location sets you with boundary gain/room modes, those are the main affecting factor for my all genelec setup
 

Willem

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You have two integration issues: sub and 8030c on the one hand, and the entire system (but mostly the sub) and the room. To integrate sub and main speakers it is easiest to just allow the sub to fill in below the main speakers, but using a high pass filter often gives a better result because you are relieving the main speakers/amplifier from the heavy lifting. So you often get a cleaner result at higher SPL. In your case you are lucky because your Genelecs already have an inbuilt high pass filter, even if basic. So I would use that at whatever frequency it kicks in, since something is better than nothing. You can then set the low pass filter on the sub to match the Genelecs' high pass filter. You can try to do this by ear, but from my own experience I can tell you that measuring gives far better result, and is not really that hard, using a UMIK-1 mic and REW software. If you want to have more versatile high pass filtering, you will either have to insert an external high pass filter (passive ones like those from Harrison labs are cheap) or buy one of the very few subwoofers that have a high pass filter, such as the very nice but expensive KEF KC62. At what seems to be your budget I would not bother to spend money on more advanced high pass filtering.
The second challenge is to integrate the subwoofer with the room. Yours is a small room, so room modes may well be quite obtrusive. The classic solution is a combination of multi subs and dsp room eq, for a smoother response over a relatively wide listening area. Two small subs will often sound better than one big sub, so this introduces the pricing of subwoofers in the Australian market. Pricing of subwoofers can be dramatically different in different continents, and in the Netherlands e.g. you could get two excellent Kef Kube8b subs for little more than one SVS SB1000pro (SVS is quite expensive over here). With two subs, dsp room eq becomes far more useful, because it will be effective over a rather wider area than just one single listening position. If you use only a computer as a source you can construct an equalization curve in REW and upload it into Equalizer APO on the PC, or an equivalent for the MAC. If you want more sophisticated equalization or are using more sources than just a computer you will have to use something like Multi Sub Optimizer for very good results (with a minidsp 2x4HD). If you want to keep it simple for fairly good results, you may consider the DSPeaker Antimode 8033. This is a dead easy automated subwoofer eq system.
My advice would be to begin the trajectory by buying a calibrated UMIK-1 measurement microphone and measure your current system, en then measure the impact of the Genelecs' inbuilt bass cut filter. This will give you an idea of the room's issues, and of the effect of the Genelec filter, although once again: something is better than nothing and an expensive higher crossover solution may be nice but dealing with the room modes will give more bang for the buck.
 
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Zeeb

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Why not just get a minidsp flex balanced
It also costs about 25% more than just the speakers + subs, so that would be be one consideration if it were me (and I'm actively considering the OP's same combo). He also already has a DAC that he may want to keep. However, it is a good suggestion if neither of these points is a major issue.
Yeah, If I was starting from scratch I might go that way, but I got a Soncoz SGD1 DAC from which I do multi-room - 2 simultaneous stereo outputs...

Looks like the Flex couldn't do what I need - I would need 5 outputs I guess, for 2 x stereo + sub. Is there a miniDSP product which does that plus DIRAC?

But anyway first I will try to get what I have working. The Genelec 55Hz Bass Roll-Off could be fine as a high-pass, and the SVS SB-1000 Pro gives me a lot of control including variable phase and PEQ. I like the idea of only trimming a little bass off the Genelec 8030Cs, and I'm hoping at the not-very-loud volumes I use that the distortion below 150Hz won't kick in (see the review thread). It could be great and perhaps I will avoid some of the room problems of a higher crossover.

doint the bass roll off and use it as a 85hz crossover seems fine, but I would say it's best get a UMIK 1
It's a 55Hz bass roll-off, but maybe I might end up close to an 85Hz low-pass on the SVS sub. I actually emailed SVS about using the bass roll-off switch... the 'Certified Sound Expert' basically said it's worth a try and I would likely end up somewhere between 70-80Hz for the sub crossover setting. (But I had told him I thought it was an 85 Hz bass roll-off - he might have said different for a 55Hz.) He encouraged me to try it by ear.

Yes, I will get a UMIK after a while to see how off my by-ear adjustments are :)

You have two integration issues: sub and 8030c on the one hand, and the entire system (but mostly the sub) and the room.
...
Good summary, I agree something is probably better than nothing for the 'high-pass' roll-off. I will get REW at least for measurement, but may not use the REW EQ on top of the internal sub DSP and Genelec DIP switches.

I'm not sure anyway if REW can be used for EQ properly through my DAC. I will use PC > DAC > 2 room simultaneous outputs (one room with sub).

Agree about putting advanced high-pass filtering to the side for now. Yes I read about the option of passive filters, and a bit about the miniDSPs and Antimode.

I'm inclined to only get one sub for space and budget reasons. The Kef Kube 8b here is almost the same price as the SVS SB-1000 Pro.
 
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waynel

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Yeah, If I was starting from scratch I might go that way, but I got a Soncoz SGD1 DAC from which I do multi-room - 2 simultaneous stereo outputs...

Looks like the Flex couldn't do what I need - I would need 5 outputs I guess, for 2 x stereo + sub. Is there a miniDSP product which does that plus DIRAC?

But anyway first I will try to get what I have working. The Genelec 55Hz Bass Roll-Off could be fine as a high-pass, and the SVS SB-1000 Pro gives me a lot of control including variable phase and PEQ. I like the idea of only trimming a little bass off the Genelec 8030Cs, and I'm hoping at the not-very-loud volumes I use that the distortion below 150Hz won't kick in (see the review thread). It could be great and perhaps I will avoid some of the room problems of a higher crossover.


It's a 55Hz bass roll-off, but maybe I might end up close to an 85Hz low-pass on the SVS sub. I actually emailed SVS about using the bass roll-off switch... the 'Certified Sound Expert' basically said it's worth a try and I would likely end up somewhere between 70-80Hz for the sub crossover setting. (But I had told him I thought it was an 85 Hz bass roll-off - he might have said different for a 55Hz.) He encouraged me to try it by ear.

Yes, I will get a UMIK after a while to see how off my by-ear adjustments are :)


Good summary, I agree something is probably better than nothing for the 'high-pass' roll-off. I will get REW at least for measurement, but may not use the REW EQ on top of the internal sub DSP and Genelec DIP switches.

I'm not sure anyway if REW can be used for EQ properly through my DAC. I will use PC > DAC > 2 room simultaneous outputs (one room with sub).

Agree about putting advanced high-pass filtering to the side for now. Yes I read about the option of passive filters, and a bit about the miniDSPs and Antimode.

I'm inclined to only get one sub for space and budget reasons. The Kef Kube 8b here is almost the same price as the SVS SB-1000 Pro.
You can use a splitter cable and use two different calibration presents, one for each room. The MiniDSP offers room correction but each preset is for one set of speakers in one room. The way to do multiroom is to use a set of synchronized streamers of your choice and separate room correction devices.
 

witwald

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See the bottom green line below - does this look like a standard 12dB high pass filter? The Genelec manual only mentions using it for room correction.
View attachment 182656
I've attempted to model the Genelec 8030 low-frequency response using VituixCAD. To get the response corresponding as closely as possible to that with the "Bass Roll-Off" option activated, I needed to use a 2nd-order high-pass filter with Q=0.53 and set to a frequency of 53Hz. The match then seemed quite reasonable.

I've also added a model of the SVS SB-1000 Pro subwoofer to the simulations. To get a reasonable blending with the "Bass Roll-Off" option active on the Genelec 8030, I needed to use a 3rd-order (18dB/octave) Butterworth low-pass filter set to 70Hz on the subwoofer. The polarity of the subwoofer needed to be negative. The resulting frequency response functions are shown below.

Note that the filtering is far from optimal, as there is a very broad region of overlap between the subwoofer and the main speaker, and the individual responses are not very complementary (in the filter sense of the word). The reason for that is related to the fact that we are trying to use the "Bass Roll-Off" option as a pseudo-high-pass filter for bass management purposes, and its shape was not designed for that task.
1644037813063.png
 
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