Yes, buy the SVS-2000s. With proper placement and integration you'll be able to address your room mode issues and get deep bass equal to or better than the Velo. I bought a pair around 4 years back and never been happier.
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Subwoofer Crisis: Replace Velodyne DD18 or buy 2 new 12" (SVS, Rythmik, or...?)
OP
- Thread Starter
- #22
Thanks, yes, those are very good units and an amazing price. I think they're probably bigger than I had in mind. WAF, ya know.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #24
I was looking at the F12 just now. 2 of them could easily go down to 14 Hz, I rekon! With speaker-level inputs that's $2500 for the pair. The luxe option I guess.
Agreed on every point. We use an SB1000 Pro in our modest HT room, and it works great for the dramas my wife usually watches, along with an occasional action show. Not every use model needs 120db at 20Hz. I use a 2014-vintage SB1000 for my desktop system, and since I'm sitting essentially next to the sub the amount of deep bass that thing generates still surprises me after all these years. And it's never failed. (Getting the sub to match seamlessly to the primary AudioEngine A5+ speakers on each side of the monitor was a PITA. EQ was a requirement, and OmniMic was very useful with test tones.) On the other hand, in my 8000 cu-ft++ primary listening room, I'm very skeptical that a couple of small subs can recreate the ability to create the impact and "air shaking" the combination of the Salon2 woofers and ports and the DD18Plus do. I dread the day when the Velodyne dies again, and I have to re-optimize the system below 150Hz.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #26
In the end I went with 2 Rythmik F12s and will also get the Velodyne repaired - will end up costing about $1,000 for that, including shipping. The kicker for me is the multi-subs to help tame my wicked room mode; the F12 goes down to 14 Hz so I expect two of them will provide the slam.
I will be putting the Velodyne DD18 up for resale so anyone who wants first crack at it, please DM me. With refurb electronics should be terrific.
I will be putting the Velodyne DD18 up for resale so anyone who wants first crack at it, please DM me. With refurb electronics should be terrific.
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Well, I think that rythmik subs are good but "slam" is not down at 14 Hz. That is throbbing infra bass range. "slam" is more of a midbass thing.
I would generally recommend a high frequency cutoff and higher damping so that system is less power/excursion limited and can play louder (you'll still get very deep bass too).
OP
- Thread Starter
- #28
Agree, the slam element I was referring two was that 2 x 12" should move enough air (at the mid-bass frequencies you mentioned) compared to my current 18" (226 sq in is basically equal to 254 sq in) whereas even a single 15" (177 sq in) probably wouldn't cut it in 4,100 cu ft.
I agree on the settings, as well. I will experiment in my room (verified by REW) to see what I need to get the best low distortion & audible low end and also avoid rattling cabinet drawers/windows, etc. Might decide on two different settings for regular listening and party-level SPL.
tineared
Member
I have a DD-15 that died several years ago and intend to send it to the Amp Man on eBay. As I have 2 SVS SB3000s and my towers have 12" woofers, I have the luxury of moving slowly. In case you're still interested: https://www.ebay.com/itm/155253361575
MasterApex
Active Member
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Curious to hear your experience with the replacement sub because I also have DD-18 now.Agree, the slam element I was referring two was that 2 x 12" should move enough air (at the mid-bass frequencies you mentioned) compared to my current 18" (226 sq in is basically equal to 254 sq in) whereas even a single 15" (177 sq in) probably wouldn't cut it in 4,100 cu ft.
I agree on the settings, as well. I will experiment in my room (verified by REW) to see what I need to get the best low distortion & audible low end and also avoid rattling cabinet drawers/windows, etc. Might decide on two different settings for regular listening and party-level SPL.
I have been itching to get a pair of REL 212/SX but have not auditioned the sound.
I also have Revel Ultima Sub 30 that died...it sounds better than DD-18.
Thanks
I think this is the real limitation for non-dedicated bat cave. Finding the point up to which you can push is they key. And of course the budget. Love for the right base can become expensive, and incremental benefit becomes disproportionate to cost....avoid rattling cabinet drawers/windows, etc.
I was not really happy with 2 subs so ended up with 4. That cleared things a bunch. Mostly reduced decay time, not at the expense of the FQ response though, and bass is tight and fast all the way down to some 30hz. I have to roll off the curve anyway at that point as the room starts rattling with around 100dB SPL in that range.
Hoping that ART might lower decay all the way down to 20hz, as my DBA is not perfect due to placement limitations and does not do a lot of magic below 30hz.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #33
I dialed in the F12s and they sound better than the Velodyne ever did, probably because of managing the room modes better. The Velodyne built in software and remote are big advantages but I have to do without. I would like to sell the DD18 cabinet and driver to someone. Will post it shortly but welcome DMs.
I just went from 2 SVS SB3000 subs to 2 very large 18" subs. If you have the room and WAF clearance I would highly recomend against the smaller SVS subs and sticking with 18" or even 21" sub(s). The problem with small SVS (and other too small enclosure subs) is massive distortion (the 20 Hz SPL spec is at 100 % distortion) and group delay is ~ 100 ms @ 20 Hz. The combination of massive group delay and undefeatable DSP with associated latency makes for very difficult integration and even at its best the results are going to be very sloppy compared to what you are used to.
I had my DD18 fixed in the last year or two. A guy on ebay who goes by "the amp man" fixed it for around $400. If I were you I'd keep it and maybe get an additional sub to help balance out room response. The big Velodynes have fantastic output and negligible distortion. I don't believe it gets substantially better than that. I'd keep it until it can't be fixed. New ones are $10,000.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #36
I went with Rythmik for exactly that reason: sealed and servo-controlled means vanishingly low distortion. I also opted for the PEQ version so wasn’t too hard to integrate with use of REW. Finally, multiple subs run at a lower level that just one, so that also helps reduce distortion. Do you have a source on how much group delay becomes perceptible? My understanding is larger cones suffer more from this.
Keith_W
Major Contributor
The problem is that nobody knows. The best study we have is with headphones and special test signals. As a rule of thumb, it's probably half a period of the frequency of interest. For example, 50Hz has a period of (1/50) = 20ms, so the GD audibility threshold is probably about 10ms in a best case scenario. It is likely to be much longer than this.
I think the issue with most subwoofer "rules of thumb" is that they start to break down under 40 Hz. For group delay "1 to 2 cycles" is the "rule of thumb" which seems to be reasonable for most of the audible spectrum but at 20 Hz this "rule" implies that 50 ms to 100 ms is OK which goes against common sense because for "lip sync" with audio and video 100 ms is noticeable but just about everyone. The other "rule of thumb" is 20 ms max group delay which to me make a lot more sense under 40 Hz. The other problem with group delay is that it makes "integration" much more difficult.... the sub and mains can be in phase at the crossover point but can become out of phase quickly as you move away from the crossover point. I wish there was more blind testing of group delay audibility with speakers but there isn't. My sighted testing with kick drum recordings leads me to believe 20 ms is a "safe" limit for group delay and many well designed subs do this. To me the problem comes when the sub companies fight too hard against "Hoffman's Iron Law" and try to use "too small" of an enclosure and then try to push the "advertised" specs (LF extension and LF SPL) higher. In order to do this they need EQ to boost the LF but then you also need a strong "high pass protection filter" to prevent the sub from self destructing. These protection filters add large amounts of group delay and often negate the "sealed subs have less group delay" generalization. Either sealed or ported subs can have reasonable group delay if well designed.
There are large variations in driver construction beyond their size but in general a larger driver will have less excursion and less distortion and less group delay.
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