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Amir recommendation criticism

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rebbiputzmaker

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Based on the testing methodology there is no way to know if he preferred one over the other, or if he could even hear a difference. Maybe he’s correct and can hear a difference, but the testing method is flawed.
Do you question every aspect of your life the exact same way?
 

raistlin65

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The problem is not the subjective listening evaluation per se but the methodology used. Idealy the speaker should be assessed by a panel or at least one trained listener in normal listening condition (in stereo, correctly positioned, inserted in the tester's system, perhaps toy speakers high-passed and augmented by a sub?).
I think that's a great idea. You should get Amir to send you the speakers when he finishes and do that.

However, that's not "ideal." You should
  • Get a more statistically relevant sample (and size) of listeners.
  • All listening tests should be blind.
  • Begin with some AB testing with several other popular speakers and provide descriptive comparisons.
  • Evaluate the speakers being tested at several different volume levels, since we don't all listen at the same levels.
  • For bookshelf speakers, they should also be evaluated nearfield in case someone wants to use them on a desktop.
  • Do a test using EQ to correct for the problems that Amir finds in the measurements.
I'm sure others can provide advice on how you could improve things from there. See, that's the thing about subjective listening tests of speakers. There's always more that you can do to improve the methodology and usefulness of the results.
 

BDWoody

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Thomas savage

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@amirm you must do better ! Now I want a guarantee if I buy a speaker you recommend it will be all I ever dreamed of , it's the least you can do for us total strangers on the internet.

Get to it son! Times a ticking buddy ...
 

amirm

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You should know better than that, as it's actually very simple: the way you are supposed to listen to the speaker is represented with estimated in-room response curve. As long as your measured in-room response doesn't resemble estimated in-room response you are NOT listening to the speaker as it was designed to be listened. As your in-room response differs very much from estimated in-room response comparing your listening impressions with NFS measurements makes very little sense.
The predicted in-room response is based on a statistical average of a number of rooms (11?) in Devantier research paper. Being an average, it is not guarantee to match any specific room. It is a standardized way of looking at each speaker so it is good to use it that way. But it is not predictive of every speaker in every room.

In addition, the microphone that I used is not a professional one for that test so you certainly can't go by the whole curve. For detecting modal response is fine. It is also good for before and after testing of room measurements. But not as way to crosscheck research papers.

Finally the notion that the speaker from every corner of audio world is designed around PIR is preposterous. Most of these companies don't have the means to measure PIR let alone follow it for their design.

As much as we advocate using measurements to analyze audio systems, you have taken your marriage to them to another/absurd level. Reminds of a great paragraph in Dr. Toole's book:

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As I said in my last response to you, you must listen. In my case, dialing in just one PEQ resulted in superb sound. Once there, there was no need to keep going for the purposes of evaluating a speaker (with respect to room impact).

Anyway, I suggest you cut out the attitude and complaining given how little you understand the topic and research.
 

amirm

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And it is clear you don't read either. I say this (emphasis added now):

Your statements about what I was trying to do is completely incorrect. I was not attempting to eliminate all the room modes, or make some flat response out of the combination of room and speaker. I
And you respond with this:
Claiming that you fixed room modes with that single filter also makes no sense at all.
And this was the second time I had to say that I went after one mode -- the dominant and problematic one -- not all the room modes. But you still didn't read it.

I have better things to do than keep correcting you over and over again.
 

Thomas savage

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The recommendation should reflect the measured performance (what John Atkinson calls "a clean bill of health").

It would make sense to add a subjective rating but the listening assessment as currently performed is not fit for purpose.
Then do your own , and we can all moan about your recommendations being based on your personal preference.. you already reject a bunch of the measuring data, interpretation and science one wonders what would please you .

There's objective measurements, all the support to understand what they mean and a subjective opinion. Of course that subjective appraisal is based to a certain degree on preference. They are speakers , this is normal. Amirm seems to minimise this but still one should gather as much information as possible and form their own judgement .

What free services are we going to moan about next week ?

Personally I think Amirm should review and buy us the speakers , hold on he already dose buy a load of them himself.

Wow , idle minds and entitlement are a bad mix.
 
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The easiest way for Amirm to silence his critics is to stop posting his measurements and subjective opinions. Why bother doing the work when all it seems to generate is grief? Or, we could use a bit of common sense, do a bit of work of our own, and appreciate the invaluable resource Amirm is and what he provides for all of us with absolutely no cost at all.
 
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Thread Starter #169
I think this thread can be close it is moving in the wrong direction.
I once again want to thank Amir to his time and efforts and I will make my own conclusions based on my taste and the data provide.
From the blind test that i have read about there is never 100% agreement.

Like I said thank you Amir for your efforts and time, if one of the moderator want he can close this thread for further replies.
 
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amirm

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The recommendation should reflect the measured performance (what John Atkinson calls "a clean bill of health").
I don't know why you are pulling stereophile into this where the star of their review is the totally unscientific subjective testing of a speaker, predominantly determined by the price and brand, than any hope of fidelity. JA's summary half the time doesn't agree with his measurements anyway so that point is not relevant.

It would make sense to add a subjective rating but the listening assessment as currently performed is not fit for purpose.
It is not fit for your purpose because you don't like me, specifically me, making that judgement. It is this superiority complex you have that you know more so by definition anything I do must be inferior and not worth being done.

How do I know this? From reading your posts elsewhere:

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Followed by:

1592152126346.png


And:

1592152175643.png


Don't assume you are so smart that we can't see through your intentions. We are not here to deal with your emotional needs. You have repeated your arguments with basic research in this field so many times I am ready to throw up after I read them once again. Test in stereo... Right, why don't you do some research to go against the one that says that is less discriminating than mono? Don't waste our time with it.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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When it could involve thousands of dollars? Pretty much, yes.
You know something, the guy happen to be talking a cheap dac in this instance. Not everything is thousands of dollars nor is everybody stupid. Next the conversation will divert into wood blocks and thousand dollar cables. Sometimes things can just sound better this is not something that everyone Has to really pick and poke constantly. No bias necessarily maybe just simple enjoyment. Life does not have to always be this difficult. Do you actually see what’s going around us at the moment? You have nothing more important to worry about?
 

BDWoody

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Sometimes things can just sound better this is not something that everyone Has to really pick and poke constantly.
On ASR? Unsubstantiated claims are unsubstantiated claims... People may actually decide not to buy something because some guy somewhere said he didn't like it...and vice versa, so pointing out where these opinions differ from what might be a more common reality based on real physics isn't 'pick'ing and 'poke'ing, it's informing.
 

QMuse

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And this was the second time I had to say that I went after one mode -- the dominant and problematic one -- not all the room modes. But you still didn't read it.

I have better things to do than keep correcting you over and over again.
Yep, you tried to correct that one mode and you did it with too low Q and didn't come close to correct it properly. I was expecting you would know there's more to proper room EQ than what you did, but OK, if you think you can talk your way out of the responses I posted, it's your choice. As I said, the graphs says it all so I feel no need to explain them further.
 

SimpleTheater

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Sometimes things can just sound better this is not something that everyone Has to really pick and poke constantly. No bias necessarily maybe just simple enjoyment. Life does not have to always be this difficult.
It’s not difficult at all to see the flaw in his testing methodology. You can argue “sometimes things can just sound better” if you added “to a specific person’s tastes”, but that doesn’t mean they sound better. I know a few people who like the sound of a turntable over much higher digital tracks and they could actually pass a true ABX blind test because they prefer the added distortion. I also know people who prefer the default tv picture out of the box, even though it’s not even close to accurate.
Life does not have to always be this difficult. Do you actually see what’s going around us at the moment? You have nothing more important to worry about?
Yes, people have been closing their eyes to what’s been happening to minorities for their entire lives and being awakened. Let’s not continue that terrible precedence with audio.
 
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