After the hype of Chinese HiFi brands, what is the jury?

[IPunchCholla]

What?!?! If I can't replace the battery on an iPhone because it's engineered as such and I have to buy a new one and throw/recycle that old iPhone and as a result it is not environmentally sustainable. That is not a fact?

It’s actually not a fact. The battery is replaceable. It is even user replaceable. And even the overstated difficulty is more complex than Apple being evil. Try making a phone that is secure even when in physical possession of someone else. Right now phones have a Secure Enclave that prevents others from physically accessing your data even if they can take the phone apart. Obviously the chip and storage need to verify each other. The screen? Probably after all it is an input method. The battery? I don’t know, but batteries now have computers on them for management, so maybe? Anyway there are a plethora of people running IPhones 8 generations old, and even if yours breaks the resale value (selling used stuff is a form of reuse) is pretty high for a non-functional item. If I am wrong, please cite how many iPhones end up in landfill every year, preferably compared to other manufacturers.

 

[CleanSound]

If I am wrong, please cite how many iPhones end up in landfill every year, preferably compared to other manufacturers.

We are not picking on Apple, we so happen to use Apple as an example of sustainability and repairability. It doesn't have to be an iPhone, it's just more about reducing waste in general, iPhones, Android or dumbphones.

I have kids, I want to leave this planet in a better place for them, my nephews and nieces and if I am so blessed, for their children and their children's children.

Some may not give a crap, ok. But don't going around giving crap to those who do. It's not about being woke, or picking on corporate greed or politics or picking/hating on Apple, it's simply about being a good steward.

 

[IPunchCholla]

We are not picking on Apple, we so happen to use Apple as an example of sustainability and repairability. It doesn't have to be an iPhone, it's just more about reducing waste in general, iPhones, Android or dumbphones.

I have kids, I want to leave this planet in a better place for them, my nephews and nieces and if I am so blessed, for their children and their children's children.

Some may not give a crap, ok. But don't going around giving crap to those who do. It's not about being woke, or picking on corporate greed or politics or picking/hating on Apple, it's simply about being a good steward.

Sure, but I think the point some of the people have about how the issue is presented is that some of the concerns , as presented are both hyperbolic, and narrow sighted. And there are legitimate concerns about any particular way we try to approach sustainability. Basically, everything in my life isa aimed tag making what I can control better and donating to causes that will help. But I also have to recognize that many suggestions aren't practical and it is never as black and white as make all electronics repairable. Repairability will often have trade offs with other concerns: Security, operability, cost being three. Do I want a phone if it is easy to hack and has direct access to much of my private information and financial institutions? Is repairability better than comfort and a level of water resistance? Is repairability good if it prices large swaths of the population out of owning something? It seems to me that those aren't easy questions to answer with a one size all fits solution. Except, except perhaps, legislating that external costs are somehow accounted for in the cost of the object. Make throwing out something expensive. But even that will disproportionately impact poor people.

 

[Salt]

Me, for myself, would tend to Fairphone all the way, but in contradiction my need is something bulletproof for outdoors.
Remains unsolved.
But this is not the topic of thread ....

 

[CleanSound]

Me, for myself, would tend to Fairphone all the way, but in contradiction my need is something bulletproof for outdoors.
Remains unsolved.
But this is not the topic of thread ....

Yes, completely off topic.

We can talk about repairability and not being wasteful, let's not talk about why and why not, worse how and how not.

 

[Sal1950]

There aren't any options in the poll that address my feelings, which are.
Where ever you live, if the option exists to buy from a domestic manufacturer, using domestic labor, always do so.
Considering China's position on human rights, avoid them like a plague.

 

[IPunchCholla]

In terms of the original question. I have a Topping PA5. It’s getting close to two years now, and I kinda hope it breaks, so I get a warranty (I bought from Apos since I’m in the US and they offer a two year warranty).

All the failures have me holding off from further purchases of Topping, but the performance to price so far has been great.

 

[Salt]

There aren't any options in the poll that address my feelings, which are.
Where ever you live, if the option exists to buy from a domestic manufacturer, using domestic labor, always do so.
Considering China's position on human rights, avoid them like a plague.

Not that uncomplicated as it seems, as more and more are "engineered in" and “manufactured in".

And CE (China Export) is not necessarily inferior quality. Certainly they know what to do to market their items, and if recommended, do sufficient effort for quality ... and only if recommended.

 

[NTK]

Not that uncomplicated as it seems, as more and more are "engineered in" and “manufactured in".

And CE (China Export) is not necessarily inferior quality. Certainly they know what to do to market their items, and if recommended, do sufficient effort for quality ... and only if recommended.

The "China Export mark" is an internet myth.

Parliamentary question | Answer to Question No P-5938/07 | P-5938/2007(ASW) | European Parliament

Answer to Question No P-5938/07

www.europarl.europa.eu

 

[pablolie]

The simple fact is that as soon as you implement software functionality, obsolescence is designed into the product. Look up Windows 11 processor support. Apple and Samsing and others openly tell you your device is not going to provide useful functionality forever. Why would anyone ever expect it in audio products?

The choice is yours. Buy integrated software functionality and you better know that functionality is a ticking timebomb and you will inevitably need a plan B. That's why all my streaming needs are fulfilled by a $299 Logitech Touch (plus other Squeezebox ecosystem devices) and the open and provenly adaptable open software ecosystem around it. Going strong and staying up to date since 2005.

That has nothing to do with China vs international brands, imo.

 

[Salt]

The "China Export mark" is an internet myth.

Parliamentary question | Answer to Question No P-5938/07 | P-5938/2007(ASW) | European Parliament

Answer to Question No P-5938/07

www.europarl.europa.eu

Certainly, missed to mark it quoted, as I thought everyone knows...

 

[Deleted member 48726]

There aren't any options in the poll that address my feelings, which are.
Where ever you live, if the option exists to buy from a domestic manufacturer, using domestic labor, always do so.
Considering China's position on human rights, avoid them like a plague.

+1

And glowing reviews and raving threads are doing the opposite of what we want and what we should prevail in the long term.
You can't discuss Chinese products without mentioning human rights if you have any moral principles of value.

 

[JSmith]

As for electronics recycling... maybe we should all think a bit more about where that ends up too;

‘I spot brand new TVs, here to be shredded’: the truth about our electronic waste

In a giant factory in California, thousands of screens, PCs and other old or unwanted gadgets are picked apart for materials. But what about the billions of other defunct (or not) devices?

www.theguardian.com

JSmith

 

[TonyJZX]

There aren't any options in the poll that address my feelings, which are.
Where ever you live, if the option exists to buy from a domestic manufacturer, using domestic labor, always do so.
Considering China's position on human rights, avoid them like a plague.

this is extremely easy to put out as platitudes

i'm in a country that has abanboned local manfacture

i'm in a country that has allowed national and multinationals to source soley from China without any other alternative

do i have to live off the grid and buy McIntosh and Wilson audio gear so as not to patronise the CCP?

I also feel like people here dont seem to be able to separate the government from the people.

I dont believe in a lot of what my government does and I'm sure many are at odds with their own government.

And so why would people here assume the Chinese reps like Mandy and John Yang and whoever runs the Fosi account to be tacit CCP accolytes who are happy with whatever internal domestic issues are going on.

Further to this, I live in the West where I can speak my mind and I dont have any fear of retribution against myself or my family.

Can people in these regimes say the same thing? I would give these people the benefit of the doubt here.

 

[TonyJZX]

As for electronics recycling... maybe we should all think a bit more about where that ends up too;

‘I spot brand new TVs, here to be shredded’: the truth about our electronic waste

In a giant factory in California, thousands of screens, PCs and other old or unwanted gadgets are picked apart for materials. But what about the billions of other defunct (or not) devices?

www.theguardian.com

JSmith

i have heard the stories about this

ie. stuff like past seasons Lacoste shirts and shoes being destroyed so they would be 'dilute' the brand by being sold at discount

TVs that were delivered with minor faults, say firmware. they the company didnt want to fix in situ do they asked big box employees to smash them.

I actually own a TV with such an issue I got for free at the distribution center.

This doesnt even get into the chaos that happens at the factories and importer.

 

[Galliardist]

The simple fact is that as soon as you implement software functionality, obsolescence is designed into the product. Look up Windows 11 processor support. Apple and Samsing and others openly tell you your device is not going to provide useful functionality forever. Why would anyone ever expect it in audio products?

Because for most audio products, purpose changes very little.
How much has vinyl playback changed or improved recent;y? Does record sound encoding change every year, or a new function get included only on recent turntables?
How much has DAC technology needed to change? In the last decade we've had a couple of streaming services, one higher bitrate iteration of DSD, and a couple of new streaming services that can be added via a computer or phone. That's pretty much it.
Amplifiers? Come on... we have some newer implementations of class D but change has mostly been in manufacturing methods and electronic controls.

The main thing to consider is DSP going in somewhere as the bigger improvement. That can be added as a new device though.

So? If core functionality is the same, what would cause obsolescence? Maybe security in some streamers. Sonos had a change that rendered older items defunct, for whatever reason.

In fact, most systems could have key components replaced by ones from the 1970s, and if they were the better components of the time, we'd be hard pushed to notice.

So are amps, passive speakers, CD players, DACs going to radically change again next month? Only in the minds of marketers.

 

[GXAlan]

The "China Export mark" is an internet myth.

Parliamentary question | Answer to Question No P-5938/07 | P-5938/2007(ASW) | European Parliament

Answer to Question No P-5938/07

www.europarl.europa.eu

Look at the date of your post and then look at this discussion in 2017, confirming that it is NOT a myth (at least in Italy)

Parliamentary question | China Export and the CE marking | E-001822/2017 | European Parliament

Question for written answer E-001822/2017 to the Commission Rule 130 Angelo Ciocca (ENF), Matteo Salvini (ENF)

www.europarl.europa.eu

 

[Waxx]

The CE marking is an EU rule, that companies confirm it's build to EEA rules. Chinese use that, but the rest of the world also.

The European Economic Area (EEA) was established via the Agreement on the European Economic Area, an international agreement which enables the extension of the European Union's single market to member states of the European Free Trade Association. The EEA links the EU member states and three EFTA states (Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Norway) into an internal market governed by the same basic rules. If you want to sell electronics (or other stuff) in that market, you need to follow the rules of that market, whereever your product is made. Also USA and EU companies need to follow that if they want to sell their product in the EEA zone.

CE marking

The letters ‘CE’ appear on many products traded on the extended Single Market in the European Economic Area (EEA). They signify that products sold in the EEA have been assessed to meet high safety, health, and environmental protection requirements.

single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu

The CE marking is not a quality control stamp, it's a declaration of the company that makes the good that they follow EEA rules.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

The CE marking is an EU rule, that companies confirm it's build to EEA rules. Chinese use that, but the rest of the world also.

The European Economic Area (EEA) was established via the Agreement on the European Economic Area, an international agreement which enables the extension of the European Union's single market to member states of the European Free Trade Association. The EEA links the EU member states and three EFTA states (Iceland, Liechtenstein, and Norway) into an internal market governed by the same basic rules. If you want to sell electronics (or other stuff) in that market, you need to follow the rules of that market, whereever your product is made. Also USA and EU companies need to follow that if they want to sell their product in the EEA zone.

CE marking

The letters ‘CE’ appear on many products traded on the extended Single Market in the European Economic Area (EEA). They signify that products sold in the EEA have been assessed to meet high safety, health, and environmental protection requirements.

single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu

The CE marking is not a quality control stamp, it's a declaration of the company that makes the good that they follow EEA rules.

It (the CE) represents quality in the way that the product that bears the mark most likely has been manufactured following a standard. And when I say mosy likely it is because it is voluntarily to follow the harmonised standard. But if you do, it is much easier to CE mark the product as a lot of details regarding the manufacturing and testing of the product has been adressed and established in the standard. Otherwise the company would have to come up with their own standard to convince governing bodies that the product is made to the same or better standard than it would have been following the existing harmonised standard. Some do the latter, most follow standard.

In conclusion I will always say that the CE mark represent quality in the way that you can expect the product to adhere to a minimum standard of manufacturing and testing.

 

[GXAlan]

In conclusion I will always say that the CE mark represent quality in the way that you can expect the product to adhere to a minimum standard of manufacturing and testing.

The CE marking is not a quality control stamp, it's a declaration of the company that makes the good that they follow EEA rules.

You are both right. CE Mark represents quality but not quality control. This is why it’s not a panacea and also why EU parliament members complain when products are imported into Europe with fraudulent marks, i.e. China Export when there isn’t an actual CE mark.

CE Mark is self-certification. I could inaccurately declare my product meets the safety standards. It would be fraud if done intentionally, but companies could lie or make mistakes. Lying has economic consequences such as not being able to bring other goods, and fines.

I certify a product and then that’s it. It’s not a quality control stamp because a) an independent third party hasn’t double checked my initial claim b) I don’t need to do ongoing testing off production lots

For electrical goods, requirements can be things like no lead solder used indiscriminately (RoHS), that the electrical insulation is appropriate that it’s not going to kill you, etc.

The CE mark REQUIRES but does not VERIFY in advance, the presence of a

• A bill of materials (BOM), product descriptions, and/or design notes.
• Any testing performed.
• Certificates from approved test laboratories (notified bodies) if required.

So I am self certifying such a set of documents exist, suitable for inspection if asked, but not required to be proven.

In practice, there is a lot of liability if there is a problem with the quality and you are a Sony, Masimo/Sound United, etc. so companies like that have ISO certification which ensures ongoing testing/lot clearance, etc. Everything is risk managed. There is an acceptable level of SINAD risk which is set by the company. We accept that x% of products fall below our design spec, so we advertise a level of performance that ensures that less than x% will fail. If we have more, we trigger an investigation. X will be pretty high since the hazard analysis will be low. No one will die from a product shipping with higher noise or THD, but it does hurt reputation and we have to replace the component that fails, etc. We accept that less than y% will electrocute and kill someone. This number has to be so low that it is effectively as close to zero as feasible. The get this level of confidence, we need to have independent third party testing, etc.


You have companies like Benchmark which get UL listing for products like the AHB2.

Key is that amps and voltage can be dangerous and there are reports of injuries from things like 12V car batteries and things under 50V (though 50V is a threshold from OSHA).

https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2015-09-04#:~:text=However%2C%20OSHA%20considers%20all%20voltages,the%20resistance%20of%20the%20object.

Bad actors will always do bad things. In the pharma world, “Bottle of Lies” is a great read about one company that was caught basically fabricating everything…