OP
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2018
- Messages
- 388
- Likes
- 602
- Thread Starter
- #241
Red without ART, green with... click on the image to see both:
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac
- Thread starter Flak
- Start date
ban25
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2022
- Messages
- 773
- Likes
- 765
Very impressive! Fingers crossed this comes to the Integra...
ban25
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2022
- Messages
- 773
- Likes
- 765
FYI, this user posted full .mdat files comparing DL/DLBC/ART:
tjcinnamon
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2021
- Messages
- 562
- Likes
- 233
I did a visual analysis as well. Not professional but here's the break down.
For SPL:
Looks like it's: DL-ART (gold) > DL+MSO (purple) > DBLC (green) > No EQ (blue)
1) DL-ART flattens peaks and addresses the Nulls/dips.
2) DL+MSO flattens peaks and mitigates dips but they exist.
3) DLBC, flattens peaks but does not address the dips
tjcinnamon
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2021
- Messages
- 562
- Likes
- 233
DL-ART > DL+MSO > DLBC > No EQ
1) DL-ART has smooth decays at 250ms (in many cases sub 250ms). Also, the SPL is 2dB to 3dB higher with still a resultant decay of approx 100ms less (I'm generalizing the decay)
2) DL+MSO has 350ms but this is likely due to being generally lower SPL than DLBC. Also, it's more consistent because of a smoother SPL
3) DLBC has 375ms but likely a touch higher than DL+MSO because the SPL is higher
1) DL-ART has smooth decays at 250ms (in many cases sub 250ms). Also, the SPL is 2dB to 3dB higher with still a resultant decay of approx 100ms less (I'm generalizing the decay)
2) DL+MSO has 350ms but this is likely due to being generally lower SPL than DLBC. Also, it's more consistent because of a smoother SPL
3) DLBC has 375ms but likely a touch higher than DL+MSO because the SPL is higher
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2023
- Messages
- 688
- Likes
- 1,089
what is the cheapest way to get the ART now? Does it work with stereo material? How's the latency?
tjcinnamon
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2021
- Messages
- 562
- Likes
- 233
Get a StormAudio AVR for about $12000 and then about $700 in software?
Otherwise, wait for a larger company to get the go ahead and implementation.
The only current rumors are the Monoprice HTP-1. That would be $4000 plus $1000 in software
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2023
- Messages
- 688
- Likes
- 1,089
I think I'll wait then, or just get W371A as I would use it for stereo 95% of time
tjcinnamon
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2021
- Messages
- 562
- Likes
- 233
I don’t but I did look for it
Would be great if we could get an idea of how many bass-capable speakers were needed to get to that level - especially the way it kills the ~70hz dip.
juliangst
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Storm also announced an "ISR Fusion 20" 16.4 channel integrated AVR that will support Dirac ART.
They said the target price is 18000€ which in my opinion is a bit expensive considering that it only has pre outs for subs and you're basically stuck with the internal amplification.
I don't think that people who shop for a ~20K€ AVR do not have the space or budget for external amps and only want an integrated solution but maybe I'm wrong.
They said the target price is 18000€ which in my opinion is a bit expensive considering that it only has pre outs for subs and you're basically stuck with the internal amplification.
I don't think that people who shop for a ~20K€ AVR do not have the space or budget for external amps and only want an integrated solution but maybe I'm wrong.
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2019
- Messages
- 23
- Likes
- 15
I asked, the user posted:
Setup is 5.4, front 50Hz,surround 70Hz,subwoofer 20Hz,center does not support group.
Two subwoofers go with me to 18Hz, the other two to 24Hz. I will separate the subwoofers into two groups after opportunity and test whether there is a change.
For those looking to read more about the setup/configuration of Dirac Art, Stormaudio has some really good info.
support-stormaudio.atlassian.net
Like many things it can be as simple or as complex as you want. I finally had time to upgrade from the ART beta to the full version. Been reading and making changes and re-running ART and it is really a great upgrade. The amount of configuration options are quite extensiv…. Deciding which speakers you want to support which speakers
Level of support speakers
Frequency range you want the support speakers to play
If you have subs that are different you can split then apart into separate groups which is very helpful
Deciding how high you want ART to work up to 150h based on the speaker group
I still haven’t been able to take measurements like I would like but I will.
ART is everything I was hoping for.
ART - Advanced guidelines & tips - STORMAUDIO - KNOWLEDGE CENTER - Knowledge Center
Like many things it can be as simple or as complex as you want. I finally had time to upgrade from the ART beta to the full version. Been reading and making changes and re-running ART and it is really a great upgrade. The amount of configuration options are quite extensiv…. Deciding which speakers you want to support which speakers
Level of support speakers
Frequency range you want the support speakers to play
If you have subs that are different you can split then apart into separate groups which is very helpful
Deciding how high you want ART to work up to 150h based on the speaker group
I still haven’t been able to take measurements like I would like but I will.
ART is everything I was hoping for.
See - this is where I think people have things wrong....
We have a paradigm currently of "small speakers" all around and then subs to fill in the bass - which causes issues with low frequency localisation, crossovers etc...
In a perfect world, each of the speakers should be full range - down to 20Hz or close thereto (my mains go down to 24Hz)
Sub positioning in a room, with room nodes etc..., give subs a certain advantage over integrated full range mains - but with the advent of ART, this advantage may well no longer exist.
4 or 6 full range towers, all of them able to go down to circa 24Hz (-3db) and further down at lower SPL's - with the help of ART to handle room issues, are likely to be a far more natural setup. - there are no crossovers, needed, bass localisation becomes a non issue (as the bass is emanating from the correct channel position!) - and one or two subs can be used for the LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel only - with no main channel crossover mixed into it. (or with the right DSP setup, the full range mains could be leveraged and the subs made completely redundant)
The comment "fronts that go to 50Hz before rolling off.... a serious system for sure" - is based on the assumption of the paradigm that has held most of the market for the last 20 years.
The surround channels are FULL RANGE - connect them to FULL RANGE speakers - that is to say speakers that do things like 24Hz "before rolling off" - this is the paradigm shift that ART is making far more viable.
Small speakers all around were originally "pushed" by marketing departments as an easier way to sell a complete HT setup - cos its cheaper!
True full range speakers effectively have a "sub" built it - that's why they cost more!
4 full range speakers will give you more than enough bass, without needing a sub.
I used to run a setup that way, about 15 years ago .... but the speakers took up too much room... caused WAF issues - so I had to move to something more compact, and use subs - but that type of setup is always a compromise.
Dolby/cinema "full range" is 40hz to 16khz. This is clearly documented in the spec. Real cinemas typically roll off past this point.
There is no such thing as a "full-range main" that has anywhere near the SPL capability of even a mid-sized ported subwoofer, and if you are using up a bunch of overhead on the ART signal then SPL capability is the most important thing.
That's the issue for me. It takes up way too much space, so I can't do it. I'm fortunate that I have 3 subs and plan to move to 4 subs at some point, but there's no real way I could swing 4 full range speakers in my family room. Full range speakers are just too intrusive. So my question remains - how effective is ART in a slightly more modest system?
pogo
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2020
- Messages
- 1,372
- Likes
- 467
That is not true. It does not necessarily have to be a Dali Kore, but the self-built or even used speakers from the good old days, such as an Isophon Vertigo, would work optimally with ART. I expect accordingly also new LSP developments.
No, it is true, and your example proves it. A Dali Kore will have mediocre output compared to subwoofers. It has 2 x 11.5" woofers, which will be similar to a single 15". And that's not even a big sub. Even then, the drivers and ports aren't optimized for sub-bass so they're still not going to match up.
Similar threads
