Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[EWL5]

While it is only on Stormaudio right now it seems like other brands will be getting added this year… If ART is added to Denon/Marantz on models like the 3800 or Onky/Pioneer/Integra adds it to their models it will become an option for a lot of people. It will be interesting to see what platforms it is running on by the end of the year.

I have a 3800 but don't have a ton of speakers (none of them full-range) and only one SW. The cost of paying for DLBC+ART would be wasted IMHO! DL+DLBM is just fine for me at the moment!

 

[jtatknox]

I have a 3800 but don't have a ton of speakers (none of them full-range) and only one SW. The cost of paying for DLBC+ART would be wasted IMHO! DL+DLBM is just fine for me at the moment!

I thought you were out.

 

[EWL5]

I thought you were out.

Just making a point that despite a mass market receiver possibly being capable of ART, there might not be many takers. If there are any folks on here working for Dirac, I would limit ART capability to Denon 6800/Marantz Cinema 30 and higher based on segmentation alone.

I'm "out" for purchasing ART...not "out" of this thread. LOL!

 

[juliangst]

They might limit the amount of support channels based on the computing power of the Sharc DSP chips for lower end receivers.
I don't think they would limit ART availability to their top end models.
Bass control is also available for the X3800h as an $800 upgrade (for a ~1000€ receiver)

 

[Dj7675]

Does anyone know if ART works with plain stereo inputs (not streaming, HDMI etc.)? I'm thinking about 3800 for example but used only as a pass through to stereo speakers with signal from the interface and few others speakers in the room working their magic, would it be possible?

I do this, if this is what you mean…
I use Roon which is sending 2 channel stereo to my Stormaudio MK2. I can select native, and it will play stereo (no upmixing). And it will use the other speakers and/or subs for cancellation. Sounds great.

 

[holdingpants01]

I do this, if this is what you mean…
I use Roon which is sending 2 channel stereo to my Stormaudio MK2. I can select native, and it will play stereo (no upmixing). And it will use the other speakers and/or subs for cancellation. Sounds great.

That's what I meant, thanks!

 

[pogo]

And it will use the other speakers and/or subs for cancellation.

What is the result if you only use both front channels with ART?

 

[dlaloum]

So this would mean: Only one subwoofer is producing the "real" sound and doing the hard work, while all the others are just producing the anti-sound? Wouldn't this be a massive downgrade compared to DLBC, where all subwoofers are producing the sound?

for the LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel - yes

For all the other channels the workload is totally distributed and shared among any speaker (whether sub or not) that is capable within the required frequency range.

So if the AVR/Mixer-decoder shares the LFE load among any speakers that are full range - then with ART, they would handle all bass
But if (as is often the case) the subs only handle the LFE (and therefore do nothing with stereo for example, which has no LFE channel) - then yeah, no benefit.

Quite a few AVR's have a "double bass" setting, which feeds the LFE channel to the main L&R speakers as well.... but with ART something more sophisiticated will be needed - and it isn't about ART, but about the mixer/decoder, and how that then distributes signal to channels.

 

[juliangst]

Can't you just configure for example a 5.0.2 instead of a 5.1.2 so that LFE gets distributed to the L+R anyway?

 

[Dj7675]

What is the result if you only use both front channels with ART?

Just 2 speakers and just using those 2 speakers as support speakers for each other? That is possible but the opportunity for ART to provide cancellation is for the most part lost IMO by not having subs or the other speakers that are already in the room provide support. I’m sure there would be an effect as I have seen videos from Dirac that it does/can have an effect, but at a minimum I would want 2 speakers, 2 subs.

 

[jtatknox]

That appears to be the case, at least for now. But other subs' level depends on frequency response (in your room) of subwoofer1. So other subs may support it very much on some frequencies and not at all somewhere else. But there are lots of variables and also settings you can adjust/tweak that can effect this.
This only happens with LFE channel. With bass managed signals, routed from other channels, all subs have the same bass signal and ART cancellation is mixed on top of that.

So does it make sense to have 1 heavy duty sub that can play loud with minimal compression and several smaller subs that can play deep but not as loud running support duty only? I understand that this would normally be most important in the case of the LFE channel.

 

[juliangst]

So does it make sense to have 1 heavy duty sub that can play loud with minimal compression and several smaller subs that can play deep but not as loud running support duty only? I understand that this would normally be most important in the case of the LFE channel.

I think it also depends on your room.
In a rectangular room the first room mode will be at the front and rear wall and the second order on the side walls so you could strategically place highly capable subs at positions where those low frequency modes would lie.

I think 4 capable subs in each corner should work well enough especially with the boundary gain from the corner.

 

[pogo]

Just 2 speakers and just using those 2 speakers as support speakers for each other?

Yes, that's what I mean - the pure co-optimization. Many NAD M66 users will only have two speakers without subs in the future. The first measurements and listening impressions in this configuration with ART were already very good. Hence the question whether you have any experience in this configuration.

 

[TimoJ]

Yes, that's what I mean - the pure co-optimization. Many NAD M66 users will only have two speakers without subs in the future. The first measurements and listening impressions in this configuration with ART were already very good. Hence the question whether you have any experience in this configuration.

I use ART (also) with 2 just speakers and it does work much better than regular Dirac. I think I earlier posted here REW measurements. But of course it's nowhere near as good as with multiple ART cancellation speakers. Listening position (for best ART effect) is more limited. And some room modes can't be removed with just two front wall speakers.

 

[AudioJester]

Is ART coming to Dirac desktop?

 

[pogo]

it's nowhere near as good as with multiple ART cancellation speakers.

This will also depend on the support settings and speakers used. With two Dali Kore speakers, I wouldn't expect any audible increase from other support speakers

 

[TimoJ]

This will also depend on the support settings and speakers used. With two Dali Kore speakers, I wouldn't expect any audible increase from other support speakers

No matter how good L/R speakers are, they will still benefit from support speakers and/or subwoofers.

 

[pogo]

I trust the co-optimization to do a lot and whether audible deficits would be perceptible at full support performance, I have not yet seen a useful test.

 

[FrankF]

No matter how good L/R speakers are, they will still benefit from support speakers and/or subwoofers.

A good set of L/R with response down to 20hz becomes a toss up regarding Subs. You end up with crossover and integration issues that outweigh the extra below 20hz bass response. I use a Minidsp SHD with Revel Salon 2s and basic Dirac and it sounds excellent with room shaking bass.

 

[TimoJ]

A good set of L/R with response down to 20hz becomes a toss up regarding Subs. You end up with crossover and integration issues that outweigh the extra below 20hz bass response.

Maybe you don't fully understand how ART works and what it does with support speakers/subs? It's not about going below 20Hz (and ART doesn't even work below 20Hz).