TAD/KEF 5.0.2 setup exceeding my expectations

[PGAMiami]

I’ve been looking for a center channel that would work with my TAD R1s for some time. TAD made a few prototypes, but never commercialized them. The closest commercial product was the Pioneer S7 EX that used TAD drivers, but these are long discontinued.

But when KEF offered their Reference 2C at 50% off, I decided to give it a try, and I also got their R3 Meta as surround and their R8 Meta as height speakers. When I first cranked the system up, it sounded OK but each speaker stood out with its own timbre. Then I ran a Dirac calibration on my Denon 4800H that I’m using as a pre-pro. This made a huge difference. The system sounds like an IMAX theater and the timbre is uniform across all the speakers.

The R1s are flat to 17hz in my room, so there is no need for a sub. The Denon does a brilliant job sending the LFE to the TADs, and it also allows each small speaker to have each own crossover point. I set the Reference 2C at 60hz, the R3 Meta surrounds at 80hz and the R8 Meta heights a 150hz.

All amps are Benchmark, except for the height channels that use the Denon. Three front channels have bridged mono amps.

I suspect what makes this work so well is that all the speakers use a coax mid/tweeter driver, so they all behave similarly and with judiciously applied EQ they match quite nicely. The Reference KEF speakers also share very low distortion measurements, comparable to the TADs.

 

[PGAMiami]

 

[Avp1]

This is all great, but I see two issues. First is that speakers of that caliber need more free space and should not be stuck into corners. Second is that center and front speakers should be (almost) at the same level. Thus if TV is used, center speakers has to go below, not above it.

 

[richard12511]

View attachment 370704

Those are some fantastic speakers, so it doesn't surprise me they sound fantastic. First time I've ever seen those TAD reference speakers in a home .

Looks like you've added some room treatment, which can often help. Are those diffusers you have at the first reflection points?

Not sure if it's possible, but it might sound even a littler better with the KEF center below the TV. May be worth trying(if you haven't already).

 

[Ron Texas]

Lovely room. Looks like a great place to watch movies and sip wine.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Lovely room. Looks like a great place to watch movies and sip wine.

And listen to music!

This is all great, but I see two issues. First is that speakers of that caliber need more free space and should not be stuck into corners. Second is that center and front speakers should be (almost) at the same level. Thus if TV is used, center speakers has to go below, not above it.

I agree that your center channel will likely be even better below your display. If it isn't too much trouble, I would recommend you give it a shot.

 

[PGAMiami]

I agree that the optimal placement for the center would be below the TV. That said, in my case it wouldn’t last there for 5 minutes before my adult son that has special needs would destroy it. He loves listening to music with me, but he also is attracted to vibrating speaker cones and he would quickly damage them.

If you look closely at the TADs you will see that the grill covers are bolted on. The original TAD M1s, which I also owned, had the coax fully exposed. The concave metal mesh that now protects all Reference TADs was developed by Andrew Jones for my son. Bottom line is the TADs have survived my home environment and they sound great, especially so if EQ’d properly.

Regarding the sound treatment, these are mostly RPG Abfussors. Not much reflects off these. Next to the TADs are RPG metal tuned bass traps covered in 1” fiberglass to absorb higher frequencies. In the back of the rooom there are RPG diffusors.

Regarding the placement of the TADs, after some discussion with Mitch Barnett of Accurate Sound we concluded the corners would work well. For 2 channel music the Denon is bypassed by a custom XLR AB switch and a Meitner MA3 drives Benchmark AHB2 amps directly. All 2 channel is via Roon with an Audiolense convolution filter that Mitch designed to adjust for the room effects, including the bass boost from corner placement. The response curve is very close to an ideal Harmon target. There are some bass dips but not audible psychoacousticly.

As an audiophile we’re taught speakers need space. But as Mitch pointed out to me, many great sounding studios have soffit mounted speakers. Would the TADs sound better in a bigger room? Maybe. But the question should be can you come up with a better sounding set up in this room.

How does Dirac compare to an Audiolense convolution filter? It’s pretty good but to my ears this is like comparing a formula 1 race car to a street legal Ferrari.

I look forward to having Mitch do a multichannel convolution for me once I find a reasonably priced product that can decode Atmos and DD+ and send that lossless to a computer. The Arvus and the upcoming NuPrime products seem promising.

 

[AudioJester]

Thanks for sharing. Some great thinking in your setup and built fit for purpose!

Are you able to share measurements of tge TADs?

 

[PGAMiami]

These are the before and after convolution measurements of the TADs. These are very low distortion high output speakers. And the corner placement creates a very large bass bump. The drivers and crossover are a 20 year old design and the frequency response could be improved by today’s standards. But with EQ they are truly amazing .

 

[Sokel]

I would elevate the whole curve to the -8dB mark (leaving highs almost unaffected) and try a listen if I was you.

 

[AudioJester]

I would elevate the whole curve to the -8dB mark (leaving highs almost unaffected) and try a listen if I was you.

The beauty of audiolense is its very easy to create whatever filters you want.
I am guesiing you want to limit correction to below transition zone? 400-500Hz?

 

[Sokel]

The beauty of audiolense is its very easy to create whatever filters you want.
I am guesiing you want to limit correction to below transition zone? 400-500Hz?

Yes,unless OP is using anechoic data from then up.

 

[PGAMiami]

Mitch Barnett has forgotten more about acoustics than I’ll ever know. I left it up to him. Correction was applied full range.

 

[quattro98]

Very cool. I think that getting good sound in a practical room environment is important. There are always compromises and balancing them with your needs matters.

Do you have pictures of the mounting setup for the R3?

 

[Avp1]

These are the before and after convolution measurements of the TADs. These are very low distortion high output speakers. And the corner placement creates a very large bass bump. The drivers and crossover are a 20 year old design and the frequency response could be improved by today’s standards. But with EQ they are truly amazing .View attachment 370737

From my experience having response flat like that is detrimental to sound. Something is getting corrupted when apply that much of correction in upper bass, mid-range and treble. For movies it will not be heard, but for music makes a huge difference.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I would elevate the whole curve to the -8dB mark (leaving highs almost unaffected) and try a listen if I was you.

you do that for the cancelations..., dont do this

 

[Sokel]

you do that for the cancelations..., dont do this

???
I didn't suggest to fill dips or up the level or something,just to keep correction below transition as suggested here:

What is your favorite house curve

OK. Next question for you folks. As far as I can tell there is no spinorama for the Focal Aria 926's, which happen to be my main speakers. However, Amir did do a spinorama for the Aria 906 standmount speakers. They use the same tweeter and mid driver as the 926, but lack the two woofers as they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

???
I didn't suggest to fill dips or up the level or something,just to keep correction below transition as suggested here:

What is your favorite house curve

OK. Next question for you folks. As far as I can tell there is no spinorama for the Focal Aria 926's, which happen to be my main speakers. However, Amir did do a spinorama for the Aria 906 standmount speakers. They use the same tweeter and mid driver as the 926, but lack the two woofers as they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

. Spatial averaging over several microphone locations tends to smooth the room curve at middle and high frequencies, thereby reducing the likelihood that an auto-EQ algorithm (or a person) might try to "fix" something that can't be fixed, or that doesn't need to be fixed.}

Ok i see your point, but in my case i made a sinlge measurement point for L and R and thats give me a much much way better measurement than several locations in my post listening test.. but i see your point, but anyway. The question is: Mids to highs sound better for who have this setup? or sound better in stock. That's must be the question and not do X or Y. How different is than vs the stock? do you find the mids to highs sound ok but can be improved and how? just my take

 

[Sokel]

Ok i see your point, but in my case i made a sinlge measurement point for L and R and thats give me a much much way better measurement than several locations in my post listening test.. but i see your point, but anyway. The question is: Mids to highs sound better for who have this setup? or sound better in stock. That's must be the question and not do X or Y. How different is than vs the stock? do you find the mids to highs sound ok but can be improved and how? just my take

I also have a single listening position and as much as I like to mess with stuff I gave my room to pros to fix from ground up (stereo only,no movies and stuff here) and still needs care down low,sadly very expensive one,so that is done through EQ for now.
I still can mess with stuff of course and I try things,mostly for fun.But I still follow what they told me,I can correct and play up to 400Hz but no more (probably Dr Toole's followers even if they mainly do professional stuff )

So I admit I do play too,mostly measure,etc.What I see all the time is that the averages around my head (we're talking 10-15 cm apart,where the ears are, either measured steady,or MMM) tell a different story than the dead centered (by laser) ones.
They also tell a different story than the pro measurements (but that was mostly the room,they used their own stuff).

Sometimes I have opinions too about my stuff,but I mostly laugh at them and let them be.

 

[PGAMiami]

Done right with Audiolense, full range convolution sounds fantastic, and you can dial in exactly the timbre that suits your preferences.