$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Adi777]

It is a pity that there is no chance that Amir will test "audiophile" audio equipment. Amplifiers, DACs and, most of all, loudspeakers.
It is hard to say ...

 

[FrantzM]

As in many things on a forum, this discussion has drifted and continue to, far from the original post...

The OP original list is very good. I believe the OP should stick to it plus (at least) a pair of subwoofers..
Repeating: Some speakers on the list, do not have the proper (reputable, reliable) measurements or are not too amenable to subwoofers (8C?), since the OP's room is large, these should be avoided ... Else any of the speakers on his list would fit, no need for some of the monstrosities and stupidly expensive outputs from the HEA.

 

[Ron Texas]

Salon 2.

 

[MKR]

As in many things on a forum, this discussion has drifted and continue to, far from the original post...

The OP original list is very good. I believe the OP should stick to it plus (at least) a pair of subwoofers..
Repeating: Some speakers on the list, do not have the proper (reputable, reliable) measurements or are not too amenable to subwoofers (8C?), since the OP's room is lare, these should be avoided ... Else any of the speakers on his list would fit, no need for some of the monstrosities and stupidly expensive outputs from the HEA.

@FrantzM … Indeed, a bit of a drift, but entertaining and informative (at times) nonetheless

To confirm, I definitely plan for subwoofers, at least for the LFE, no question there. And yes, the more I research the 8C, the more it seems not the best choice given my requirements. Likely to be dropped from the list.

By the way, can you elaborate on your comment that some speakers on the short list do not have reputable/reliable measurements? Which ones?

Thanks!

 

[MKR]

Salon 2.

@Ron Texas … Would be on the short list but is it not discontinued? Or am I wrong about that?

 

[MKR]

Kii Audio offers samples to listen in your own room before buy.

disclaimer: I have a pair without bxt.

@Morla … Hello sir … yeah, definitely potential for in home audition is tempting. What other speakers have you heard and compared to Kii?

Thanks

 

[MKR]

Very nice ESPECIALLY for in-room curves!! The ear/brain system tends to sum peaks and dips which are within about 1/3 octave of each other, so your curve is probably going to sound smoother to the ears than it looks to the eyes.

I've found that simply using sufficient cone area can approximate a real-world (rather than textbook) cardioid pattern well down into that 80-300 Hz region, though not necessarily all the way down to the bottom of it. Something like the JBL M2 with its big 15" woofer would have good room interaction down almost as low as a cardioid, but with a lot more SPL capability.



Earlier you listed six speakers on your "best I have ever heard" list, three of which were dipoles. At this time do you have any inclination towards dipoles or something with characteristics reminiscent of a good dipole, assuming it retains the output capability implied by your "biggest and baddest" criteria?

@Duke … Short answer, yes. I like the “naturalness” of dipoles, seem to more realistically portray the actual performance venue. And especially dipole bass is quite addictive. Again, very natural to my ears. If I could have a speaker with the strengths of both dipole and monopole, with none of the drawbacks, sign me up! But I think such a beast is mostly a pink unicorn.

But to state simply I do not have a preference for either in the strictest sense … my preference is the most realistic/accurate portrayal of the performance venue and recording as possible, could care less how the speaker actually achieves that

 

[MKR]

I would recommend Funk Audio for subwoofers if you do subs. Nathan Funk is in a league of his own when it comes to subwoofer design. His speakers also look very nice, but I have never seen measurements for them other than distortion, which do look very impressive.

Those subs are crazy expensive … I am sure they are great, but wowzers

 

[MKR]

MKR, I think an "endgame" speaker should have three features:

1. Available spinorama data that is smooth and flat
2. Top tier bass extension
3. For watching film, the ability to produce 105dB peak at the listening position.

The 105 dB spec is required to watch uncompressed movies at reference level. If the listening position is 10 feet, that means the speaker must produce roughly 115dB peak at 1 meter to get to 105dB at the listening position. This has been the standard for both Dolby and THX for decades.

Of the speakers you listed, it looks like only the Genelec 8361A and the Neumann K420 are able to do all of that. Others seem deficient in various ways. The Magico A5, for example, has only 55Hz of bass extension, which is pretty pathetic considering the high price.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, some other speakers that do the job are the Genelec 1237a, 1238a, JBL M2, JBL 4367, etc. In my mind the M2 is the most "end game" of all the speakers discussed. The M2 spinorama graphs look great, the bass extension is second to none, and the SPL is second to none.

The graph below shows the necessary power for screen speakers in movie theaters. The left column is for a 20ft deep movie house or 103dB at 13.3ft, which is equivalent to 105.5dB at 10ft. The Kef blade 2 and Revel Ultima Salon are only 86dB per watt, and as you can see from the chart would require 800W to get to 105dB. Do they handle 800W peak? It's unclear. The M2 only requires 200W for the same output, and the 4367 needs just 125W, although it gives up some bass.

View attachment 238241

Thank you @Speaker_tweaker , very helpful. The M2 and 8361 are certainly floating to top of the list, no doubt about it

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Will be primarily for music, but definitely plan to pull double duty also for home theater.

I noticed that little attention has been paid to this sentence in the opening post. Consideration of active loudspeakers raises issues of connectivity.
1. Active loudspeakers with DSP will generally accept an analog signal which will be (re-)digitized by an internal ADC. Depending on ones sources, experiences and/or biases, this may be unacceptable.
2. Active loudspeakers with DSP will generally accept a digital signal. Assuming that the internal processing is compatible with the user's sources, there is still the matter that it is rare that one can obtain multichannel digital signals from mainstream sources like AVRs and AVPs. (There are a few exceptions at the top of the market.) Even direct input from a smartTV or set-top box will demand downstream decoding that these speakers lack.

These were major considerations in my continuing choice of passive speakers which I use with upstream DSP.

 

[NDRQ]

It is a pity that there is no chance that Amir will test "audiophile" audio equipment. Amplifiers, DACs and, most of all, loudspeakers.
It is hard to say ...

You mean testing overpriced garbage? He testing that those too, sometimes..

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Unless there's center channel signal source.

BTW, I've heard a number of these in my own room:

• D&D 8C (with subs) without subs.
• Kii Three + BXT without subs.
• KEF Blade Two Meta (much better looking than the Ref 5 )
• Perlisten S7t
• Revel Performa F328Be Not these but the F228Be and the Studio2

My room is smaller but the Kii seemed to need the sub/BXT but the D&D less so.
The Perlistens seemed to restrict one to a smaller MLP than most of the others.
The Blade, Perlisten and my (erstwhile) Studios sounded nearly identical when A/B-ed close-up (~1meter) and they measure so as well. It was only when I moved back to my normal listening distance (~3.3meters) that the differences were readily apparent. Under my use/conditions, the Blades were a clear winner................with or without the subs.

Ooops. I mistakingly left this one off my reply.

• Vivid Audio Kaya 45 (which I reviewed in https://www.stereophile.com/content/vivid-kaya-45-loudspeaker).

The 45 is a great speaker but I really doubt that it can handle a space of the size that the OP has. However, I would suspect that the larger Kaya 90 might be up to that task and, at $26K, still fit within the budget limit.

 

[Adi777]

You mean testing overpriced garbage? He testing that those too, sometimes..

Yyy...How do you know trash? Only Revel, JBL and KEF are good?
I'm just curious about different speakers, also from not so famous companies. It's boring to hear only about the same speakers and especially DACs...

 

[D!sco]

If your goal is actual sound quality in a room like that, it may be worthwhile to consider pro audio. "Stereo" may not cut it in a 20'x40'. I'm one of the people who hasn't actually heard most of these speakers. I've heard the Genelecs in studio, and a KEF Blade on a retail floor, but not the new META 2. It just may be possible that any of these speakers individually may not cut it. Phase-corrected and DSP controlled sattelite & sub, wall/ceiling systems may actually sound best in your miniature nightclub. KEF sells quite a bit of in-wall audio that looks the part and probably sounds good once corrected. Revel also has some appealing low profile systems to consider.

The Genelecs are going to be a no-brainer for price to performance. You could pay a professional to set up a large scale surround system at a low profile. This is what I would do with your resources. Cardioid seems opposite to your goals here. I would prefer them for seated or "selfish" listening, like studio monitoring and HT, a dedicated listening position or something very narrow. A big open space like this, depending on the goal, would want a high SPL capability and wide dispersion for off-axis.

Good luck.

 

[chorus]

RA,
You are looking at one-the highest priced- line from Borresen. Starts at $15k or did.

 

[srrxr71]

I disagree with this. If the directivity isn't uniform, either the listening window, early reflections or sound power will have coloration and that can be perceived by the listener

I see. I think I got a little too excited about treatments. Considering a person’s path toward an ideal system for them I guess it needs both and one could budget towards some treatments first while they save for a good pair of speakers with controlled directory.

However I could understand someone getting a LS50 (or something like that) first and then consider treatments. Probably that would make the bulk of the difference and then treatments could take that to next level.

However if someone needs to match their existing 120dB capable system with new equipment it gets expensive very quickly to do it with controlled directivity. Perhaps that person might tame their room to some degree first while they contemplate the cost and budget of upgrading their speakers. Perhaps it could whet their appetite for that upgrade once they realize that brands and BS marketing matter none when you respect the science and master the waves.

 

[srrxr71]

If your goal is actual sound quality in a room like that, it may be worthwhile to consider pro audio. "Stereo" may not cut it in a 20'x40'. I'm one of the people who hasn't actually heard most of these speakers. I've heard the Genelecs in studio, and a KEF Blade on a retail floor, but not the new META 2. It just may be possible that any of these speakers individually may not cut it. Phase-corrected and DSP controlled sattelite & sub, wall/ceiling systems may actually sound best in your miniature nightclub. KEF sells quite a bit of in-wall audio that looks the part and probably sounds good once corrected. Revel also has some appealing low profile systems to consider.

The Genelecs are going to be a no-brainer for price to performance. You could pay a professional to set up a large scale surround system at a low profile. This is what I would do with your resources. Cardioid seems opposite to your goals here. I would prefer them for seated or "selfish" listening, like studio monitoring and HT, a dedicated listening position or something very narrow. A big open space like this, depending on the goal, would want a high SPL capability and wide dispersion for off-axis.

Good luck.

Yep pretty much 8361 + w371 pair. Done deal. At $30k no other option is as practical. No messing with miniDSP and you can calibrate your system with GLM to a reference and then you can add any other AVR calibration on top if you wish.

 

[srrxr71]

I noticed that little attention has been paid to this sentence in the opening post. Consideration of active loudspeakers raises issues of connectivity.
1. Active loudspeakers with DSP will generally accept an analog signal which will be (re-)digitized by an internal ADC. Depending on ones sources, experiences and/or biases, this may be unacceptable.
2. Active loudspeakers with DSP will generally accept a digital signal. Assuming that the internal processing is compatible with the user's sources, there is still the matter that it is rare that one can obtain multichannel digital signals from mainstream sources like AVRs and AVPs. (There are a few exceptions at the top of the market.) Even direct input from a smartTV or set-top box will demand downstream decoding that these speakers lack.

These were major considerations in my continuing choice of passive speakers which I use with upstream DSP.

Yes this is a consideration. I realized that given that Genelecs offer both digital and analog inputs. I could use both.

So my music setup would go purely digital into the Genelecs. This could be stereo or it could be PC software processed then into a MiniDSP UIO-8 if one wishes to employ any processing on a PC.

For multichannel I would just go analog. Yes it redigitizes. It’s a movie soundtrack and the redigitization is functionally transparent. I wouldn’t worry about that. I would just take the Pre outs from the receiver and connect to the monitors.

Now one would need to open up GLM and the just switch profiles. You can set up unlimited custom calibrations for analog and digital. For example your analog calibration will consider the +10dB LFE channel while your digital group does not.

The GLM way of setting up groups is genius.

All those options are great but for practical purposes the GLM system is just a game changer. It makes the system so versatile and no headaches. You can figure it out in your own. No need to program any DSP or mess with miniDSP and REW. It holds your hand and gets you the practical results you want.

 

[srrxr71]

It is a pity that there is no chance that Amir will test "audiophile" audio equipment. Amplifiers, DACs and, most of all, loudspeakers.
It is hard to say ...

When one of the posters here informed a ATC fanboy he used the term “cottage industry”. That term stuck with me. It perfectly describes the “audiophile” speaker world.

Most of those designs are one dude’s opinion on how something sounds good in his room from his chair in his listening spot for his use case. They really are cottage industry level products. Priced high for lack of scale. Very poor value on multiple fronts.

Amir testing that stuff would only be to extinguish age old historical arguments about “my speaker is better than your speaker”

He tests an awful lot of equipment already. Even stuff with low probability of being engineered properly. So we do get to expose these products. However his focus is on what people can get in their future to meet their needs. So he tests current equipment with some focus on price and practicality.

At least that’s how I see it.

 

[MusicMan74]

Echoing what other users have said regarding spending 'more' on amplification/room treatment/DSP and 'less' on speakers, maybe Dennis Murphy's $4,100/pair BMR Towers fit the bill:

Philharmonic Audio

philharmonicaudio.com

reviews

Philharmonic BMR Tower Speaker Review: Strike Gold Twice?

Philharmonic Audio BMR tower is a 3-way wide dispersion speaker that scales up the performance and bass output from of their fabulous Philharmonitor previously reviewed. Read on to see if how it’s done.

www.audioholics.com

Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf Speaker Review

Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf Speaker Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com