$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Vacceo]

If your goal is actual sound quality in a room like that, it may be worthwhile to consider pro audio. "Stereo" may not cut it in a 20'x40'. I'm one of the people who hasn't actually heard most of these speakers. I've heard the Genelecs in studio, and a KEF Blade on a retail floor, but not the new META 2. It just may be possible that any of these speakers individually may not cut it. Phase-corrected and DSP controlled sattelite & sub, wall/ceiling systems may actually sound best in your miniature nightclub. KEF sells quite a bit of in-wall audio that looks the part and probably sounds good once corrected. Revel also has some appealing low profile systems to consider.

The Genelecs are going to be a no-brainer for price to performance. You could pay a professional to set up a large scale surround system at a low profile. This is what I would do with your resources. Cardioid seems opposite to your goals here. I would prefer them for seated or "selfish" listening, like studio monitoring and HT, a dedicated listening position or something very narrow. A big open space like this, depending on the goal, would want a high SPL capability and wide dispersion for off-axis.

Good luck.

This post to OP´s answer leads me to a question you may help me with.

OP states that the speakers will be dual use, both for music and home theatre. For that, you´re not recommending cardioid speakers on a HT environment. Would you mind elaborating a bit more on that? I´m guessing it may have to do with a preference for point source sound when dealing with HT, but perhaps there are more reasons.

 

[Bugal1998]

JBL M2 (several folks recommended this one … though I am not sure if it is really in same league as the other actives and I have read it can be harsh, plus they are UGLY, WAF may be an issue here )

Thanks all, really appreciate the continued opinions, very helpful. Please keep it coming!

MKR

I went on a similar journey some years ago, and landed (somewhat surprisingly) on the M2 as my choice. They've given me zero reasons to question that decison in the years since.

Won't argue the ugly/WAF factor of the M2 (though my spouse likes them in a dedicated room). I would disagree with the notion that they're harsh, though--at least with the Crown I-tech tunings--they're a tad bright out of the box.

I'm using brightness to refer to a tonal trait that can be eq'd, while I think of harshness as something caused by diffraction sources, driver breakup modes, and resonances; those latter issues may persist through any attempts to EQ. The M2 does not suffer from those issues and is very EQable.

The directivity behavior also suggest that EQing them to the desired in-room response will yield the expected sonic results; i.e. You should be able to easily dial in the exact tonality you desire, the same as the other top-tier speakers on your list.

I've heard the Salon 2's on multiple occasions (was planning to buy them), 228be's, 4367s (if I didn't have the M2 I would have the 4367), Genelec 1237A (I believe), B&O Beolab 90, and a wide range of Monitor Audio, Kef (various Reference series, but not the blades), Wilson, B&W, Martin Logan, Meridian, Lyngdorf, PSB, and similar speakers. To my ears, the M2 is superior to all of them (except perhaps the 4367). Definitely, don't take my word for it, but if you value accuracy, refinement, and uncompressed output from an end-game speaker, I wouldn't eliminate the M2 if there's anyway you could audition them.

I haven't heard the Kii's, D&Ds, or newer Genelecs, so I can't say if the M2 is in the same league or not, nor will I speculate. I will say the that the relative lack of instantaneous compression below 200hz is striking with the M2, and based on the compression sweeps we've seen for some of the other options above, I question if they could keep pace with the M2 in that critical range; given the amount and amplitude of musical information in those frequencies, I wouldn't be too dismissive of the potential for audible differences and a possible preference for the more dynamic speaker.

Annnnnd... that's my 2 cents on the topic.

Apologies if I missed it previously, in what region of the world are you located?

 

[srrxr71]

With something like the “giant” Genelec 8361s probably will not come close to the M2. However if you add one or two 15” subs at $5k each then they will compete. Also you will be saving $8k on the cost of the M2.

However in the end the M2 may be worth the extra $8k to you for its unique size and capability.

 

[Speaker_tweaker]

By the way, can you elaborate on your comment that some speakers on the short list do not have reputable/reliable measurements? Which ones?

The only useful measurements are the spinorama graphs. These tell you virtually everything you need to know about a speaker with the exception of the compression properties and maximum acoustic output. I've been building speakers for roughly 25 years, and maybe around 2010 I discovered Floyd Toole's research. It took me a very long time to shift to the realization that sighted subjective assessments, including my own, are almost worthless. Today, I'm actually embarrassed for myself that it took me this long to really internalize this.

Again, you can find measurements in this database: https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/

As a guess, I would say the best measurements are from ASR and EAC, because the speakers measured are mostly production samples, and may be more likely to represent a random sample you will receive.

Manufacturer spinoramas are also excellent (such as Kef, Meyer, JBL/Revel), but these are probably prototype speakers that do not represent the variations in production.

A prerequisite for a good speaker is flat directivity indices. If the directivity is not reasonably smooth and flat, the speaker is not a high performance speaker. Other problems like lack of bass or even resonances can be fixed with subwoofer augmentation or equalization.

This is a good primer on spinorama curves here.

Yyy...How do you know trash? Only Revel, JBL and KEF are good?
I'm just curious about different speakers, also from not so famous companies. It's boring to hear only about the same speakers and especially DACs...

Again, see link here https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/

Sort by score and you can see plenty of not so famous companies who make good stuff. My only issue with these guys is the value proposition, not the quality.

Any boutique speaker manufacturer can send their stuff to Amir or Erin and get their stuff measured for free. I'm sure there are plenty of manufacturers that have spin data for their products, but don't share it because it's looks/is bad.

Thank you @Speaker_tweaker , very helpful. The M2 and 8361 are certainly floating to top of the list, no doubt about it

You're welcome. Now I'm going to stop compulsively posting to this thread

 

[MKR]

@MKR, thank you for your in-depth response.



Got it. How far out into the room can you position your speakers? Ime dipoles like a minimum of 3 feet behind them, and really like 5 feet or even a bit more.



I saw the prototype Orions at Siegfried Linkwitz's place back when he still had the Audio Artistry Beethovens hooked up. He asked me not to mention the existence of the Orions to anyone yet, and I didn't. So it sounds like you visited him shortly after I did. I suggested that he add a rear-firing tweeter, which he didn't do at first but did later on, though I do not know whether my suggestion was influential.

Imo the latest Linkwitz speakers are superb. You might want to investigate their SPL capability, just to be sure they will work well in your big room.



I have been consistently very impressed with Clayton Shaw's designs; I was a dealer for him back when he owned Emerald Physics. The X series uses prosound and prosound-style drivers so presumably the SPL capability is pretty high.



One technique for getting the dialogue on-screen for off-centerline users using phantom center mode is to use fairly narrow-pattern speakers with a lot of toe-in. This is called "time/intensity trading", and I can explain if you would like. I use it routinely.



No that is not too much to ask at all. Imo "you are there" is the holy grail, as far as spatial quality goes. I can offer an opinion on characteristics which contribute to a "you are there" presentation, wherein the venue spatial cues on the recording dominate over the playback room's spatial cues. Imo this is an area where a good dipole speaker can excel. (Disclaimer: I'm a dealer for a dipole speaker line and manufacture speakers which have some characteristics in common with dipoles.)



Is this why the Spatial X4 is on your list, rather than the larger (and louder) X5?

Hey @Duke … I can get the speakers 5ft into room, no issue. Really cool you were also able to connect with Siegfried in person. And yup, I have concerns about the Linkwitz ultimate output capability, primarily the dipole bass. Though in this case I can add in some additional sealed subs (or giant dipole subs) to makeup the difference, I think. As to your dealership of a dipole speaker line, feel free to contact me directly about this, no issue from my side.

As to Spatial X4 vs X5, it is actually the X3 that is the larger, but X3 has a powered LF driver. Not sure I want that.

Thanks

 

[pablolie]

Kii.

 

[MKR]

There's a reason hifi dealers have all those tiny audition rooms! FYI the Harman reference room is 21x24x9.



No, it's not. But take the $2000 Revel F208 for example. This speaker has similar bass to the F228Be and Kef Blade 2 Meta (all are -6dB at 29 or 30hz), and also has great spins (see here). If you spend more and you're not getting more output (and less compression), then what are you getting for your money? Possibly nothing.



You can do this for way less than your budget. Limiting factors will be the recordings and the room.



Read the harman white paper on subs, although I'm not sure you need them.


If you don't want it in your house, don't bother!

Again, you might also consider the way better looking 4367 over the M2. It's similar but has a passive crossover. Erin of Erin's audio corner said it would be his personal choice for a speaker if he could afford it. Personally I am tired of looking at tower speakers and find this aesthetic far more compelling.


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@Speaker_tweaker thanks … that 4367 looks very nice indeed. Will research that one more for sure, thanks for the recommend.

 

[MKR]

If I were spending $30k for a pair of speakers they would need to look great as well as sound great. I realize that’s likely THE most subjective aspect of the choice, but one I could not ignore.

@mglobe Agree … BUT, if I have to choose between looks and highest performance, I will take performance EVERY time. With that said, in this price range I am quite certain I will be able to find a speaker that has both

 

[MKR]

I noticed that little attention has been paid to this sentence in the opening post. Consideration of active loudspeakers raises issues of connectivity.
1. Active loudspeakers with DSP will generally accept an analog signal which will be (re-)digitized by an internal ADC. Depending on ones sources, experiences and/or biases, this may be unacceptable.
2. Active loudspeakers with DSP will generally accept a digital signal. Assuming that the internal processing is compatible with the user's sources, there is still the matter that it is rare that one can obtain multichannel digital signals from mainstream sources like AVRs and AVPs. (There are a few exceptions at the top of the market.) Even direct input from a smartTV or set-top box will demand downstream decoding that these speakers lack.

These were major considerations in my continuing choice of passive speakers which I use with upstream DSP.

Thanks @Kal Rubinson for bringing this up. Indeed a concern I have when using active speakers. I definitely do not want to have multiple conversions occurring, nothing good can come of that. I was thinking there was maybe a solution that would allow me to avoid this situation when using active, but I fear it is a real issue, keeping me in the passive lane.

A related question … I am a phono lover, how to use phono with active speaker (avoid conversions)? Seems it is not possible. Maybe another reason to stick with passive?

 

[Ron Texas]

@Ron Texas … Would be on the short list but is it not discontinued? Or am I wrong about that?

They are still for sale AFIK.

 

[MKR]

Ooops. I mistakingly left this one off my reply.

• Vivid Audio Kaya 45 (which I reviewed in https://www.stereophile.com/content/vivid-kaya-45-loudspeaker).

The 45 is a great speaker but I really doubt that it can handle a space of the size that the OP has. However, I would suspect that the larger Kaya 90 might be up to that task and, at $26K, still fit within the budget limit.

@Kal Rubinson Yup, definitely had my eye on Vivid. The Giya especially, but they are UGLY. Look like speakers the critters from Aliens would have. But, the Kaya 90 could work. More research to do!

 

[MKR]

If your goal is actual sound quality in a room like that, it may be worthwhile to consider pro audio. "Stereo" may not cut it in a 20'x40'. I'm one of the people who hasn't actually heard most of these speakers. I've heard the Genelecs in studio, and a KEF Blade on a retail floor, but not the new META 2. It just may be possible that any of these speakers individually may not cut it. Phase-corrected and DSP controlled sattelite & sub, wall/ceiling systems may actually sound best in your miniature nightclub. KEF sells quite a bit of in-wall audio that looks the part and probably sounds good once corrected. Revel also has some appealing low profile systems to consider.

The Genelecs are going to be a no-brainer for price to performance. You could pay a professional to set up a large scale surround system at a low profile. This is what I would do with your resources. Cardioid seems opposite to your goals here. I would prefer them for seated or "selfish" listening, like studio monitoring and HT, a dedicated listening position or something very narrow. A big open space like this, depending on the goal, would want a high SPL capability and wide dispersion for off-axis.

Good luck.

@Disco Well understood And helpful, thanks. Note I also have a smaller room I could use, about half the size, the 20x40 not set in stone.

And why do you say cardioid opposite my needs? Just trying to learn.

Thanks

 

[srrxr71]

Thanks @Kal Rubinson for bringing this up. Indeed a concern I have when using active speakers. I definitely do not want to have multiple conversions occurring, nothing good can come of that. I was thinking there was maybe a solution that would allow me to avoid this situation when using active, but I fear it is a real issue, keeping me in the passive lane.

A related question … I am a phono lover, how to use phono with active speaker (avoid conversions)? Seems it is not possible. Maybe another reason to stick with passive?

Imho no real good reason to stay passive. Just my opinion. Your music was already converted many times over.

See the “history of vinyl” thread where they make it clear even back in the 70s they had to use digital delay to monitor the signal sent to the lathe cutter.

These conversions these days are effectively transparent. It is the buyer’s choice to not believe that I guess. Just keep in mind your music has already been through A/D conversion.

These pro monitors are the same or similar to what is used when making your music.

You can get a digital phono preamp to do the RIAA eq. Or use your analog one and just connect to the analog input of a pro monitor. Does it make a difference? The science says no. Do you believe it? Maybe not. Nobody can change an opinion for someone else.

I will say that you matching amps to drivers etc is not on the same level as the guys who designed the drivers and tested and developed the amps to feed those drivers. I prefer to let the experts making those pairings for me. Just a decision I made many years ago.

Crossovers in digital are also mathematically as good as it can get. There is a reason they went that way and also that all new stuff has gone that way.

Geithain is probably the best analog implementation of these new fangled technologies. So ahead of their time. If you just stay purely analog. Which isn’t really purely analog unless you find a record that is certified AAA.

 

[MKR]

Yep pretty much 8361 + w371 pair. Done deal. At $30k no other option is as practical. No messing with miniDSP and you can calibrate your system with GLM to a reference and then you can add any other AVR calibration on top if you wish.

@srrxr71 I was definitely leaning this way until @Kal Rubinson burst my bubble … but per your comments, seems it is possible? Do some theater processors have a digital out? Again I want to avoid re-conversions like the plague.

Thanks

 

[Doodski]

@MKR have you considered a used M2 pair or used JBL PROJECT EVEREST DD67000.

JBL M2 Speakers+ Matching Crown Amps

I am the first owner, bought these from a JBL dealer. Demo units. On speaker seems to be repainted (they were delivered this way) and has leftover glue (I tried to stick a white finish vinyl :( that can be removed with some effort). The sound is really amazing and the best i have heard to date...

www.usaudiomart.com

JBL M2

Pair of JBL M2 Loudspeakers. These were used in my system for the past 5 years. Originally designed as large studio monitors they have been a favorite for both home theater and two channel stereo applications. Not particularly pretty to look at as they are more or less a black monolith with a...

www.usaudiomart.com

 

[MKR]

Yes this is a consideration. I realized that given that Genelecs offer both digital and analog inputs. I could use both.

So my music setup would go purely digital into the Genelecs. This could be stereo or it could be PC software processed then into a MiniDSP UIO-8 if one wishes to employ any processing on a PC.

For multichannel I would just go analog. Yes it redigitizes. It’s a movie soundtrack and the redigitization is functionally transparent. I wouldn’t worry about that. I would just take the Pre outs from the receiver and connect to the monitors.

Now one would need to open up GLM and the just switch profiles. You can set up unlimited custom calibrations for analog and digital. For example your analog calibration will consider the +10dB LFE channel while your digital group does not.

The GLM way of setting up groups is genius.

All those options are great but for practical purposes the GLM system is just a game changer. It makes the system so versatile and no headaches. You can figure it out in your own. No need to program any DSP or mess with miniDSP and REW. It holds your hand and gets you the practical results you want.

@srrxr71 You make a compelling case. But, the re-digitizing is transparent? I am not so sure about that. Fully depends upon the design execution of the converters I suppose. Maybe something for me to chat directly with Genelec about

 

[MKR]

Echoing what other users have said regarding spending 'more' on amplification/room treatment/DSP and 'less' on speakers, maybe Dennis Murphy's $4,100/pair BMR Towers fit the bill:

Philharmonic Audio

philharmonicaudio.com

reviews

Philharmonic BMR Tower Speaker Review: Strike Gold Twice?

Philharmonic Audio BMR tower is a 3-way wide dispersion speaker that scales up the performance and bass output from of their fabulous Philharmonitor previously reviewed. Read on to see if how it’s done.

www.audioholics.com

Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf Speaker Review

Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf Speaker Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

@MusicMan74 Nice speakers to be sure, excellent design, but I do not think enough output for my needs

Thanks

 

[srrxr71]

@srrxr71 I was definitely leaning this way until @Kal Rubinson burst my bubble … but per your comments, seems it is possible? Do some theater processors have a digital out? Again I want to avoid re-conversions like the plague.

Thanks

See this really will come down to your belief system.

Perhaps you can find a processor which strips the digital protection. Maybe use a HD FURY device to do that. Then play with it. I’m not sure if it extracts all the channels and/or can defeat the latest protections.

It’s just headache imho. For something that is scientifically proven to not matter. Just feed the analog preamp in the monitor with a high enough signal and use the GLM volume control for output volume. Yes there are precautions you must take to ensure the A/D occurs at the highest possible quality. Once those are figured out you can rest easy that it’s fine.

Also for me music matters a lot but if my HT movie soundtrack hits an additional A/D I couldn’t care less personally. Does it sound good? Can I hear the dialog clear as crystal? That’s what matters to me.

For turntable specifically I would research digital phono preamps or if you like the sound of your current phono preamp I would run that through a A/D of my own choosing if I were very particular about that. Making sure the levels hitting the A/D are suitably high to maximize fidelity.

You may choose to not believe but the 24/192 ADC on these modern devices far surpass anything that can be delivered by a turntable. It’s just fact. Feelings may differ. Which you want to satisfy is your choice.

From my limited experimentation I feel like I can make any digital track sound like an analog turntable by simply lopping off the bottom and top octaves. It’s worth a try. No judgements about how anyone enjoys consuming their music.

Play with the pEq how you feel like. It’s the new wave of “audiophilia”. You tune your sounds to how YOU like it. Not caring about what anyone else thinks.

Not much of a tinkerer these days but some is needed. You check your in room response and play with it. Treat it. You want the system you use to be easy to use. If you have to learn a program it better be easy unless you like to tinker. I believe that aspect is what matters most in a modern 2022 system.

There are people who might say no end game system is end game without using accourate software. Others will say Trinnov. Many studios use Trinnov. That’s how they can work without GLM. For me it does basically what I need and I feel no particular need to play with any other correction systems.

The only one which tempts me is Dirac Live Bass Control. I would try to figure out a way to test it when I can access it. I wish they would just release it as software for PC/Mac.

 

[srrxr71]

@srrxr71 You make a compelling case. But, the re-digitizing is transparent? I am not so sure about that. Fully depends upon the design execution of the converters I suppose. Maybe something for me to chat directly with Genelec about

Hey those converters are good enough to make your music so I’ll leave it there.

 

[MKR]

This post to OP´s answer leads me to a question you may help me with.

OP states that the speakers will be dual use, both for music and home theatre. For that, you´re not recommending cardioid speakers on a HT environment. Would you mind elaborating a bit more on that? I´m guessing it may have to do with a preference for point source sound when dealing with HT, but perhaps there are more reasons.

@Vacceo … I just posted the same question in fact