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Upsampling 16/44.1 collection a good idea?

tmtomh

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Sorry, I am confused here. We do have quite a few arguments but could you point me to the exact statement(s) I made regarding this test? Thanks

If you don't think that upsampling can reduce quantization noise, then I was mistaken about your view. If you have been uncertain about that and have been wondering whether or not upsampling can positively impact quantization noise, then danadam's chart provides certainty.

Beyond that, I just did a quick search of your posts in this thread and there are more than 120 of them, so No, I'm not going to read through all of those looking for an exact statement. You know what your view is and you know what your questions and concerns are, so if you want to correct or clarify my understanding of what exactly your position is on this matter, you're welcome to do so.
 
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antcollinet

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Beyond that, I just did a quick search of your posts in this thread and there are more than 120 of them
It is called sea-lioning. There are 2 or 3 people doing it right now around the forum. See also "Gish Gallop"

picture-2_1657987511232.png
 

Tell

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Haha what? Didn't know about the term sea-lioning before, but yeah I got the feeling after a while that it was something very strange going on here. Almost feels like a weird endless ChatGPT thing going on here. What the hell is wrong with people?
 

KSTR

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It is called sea-lioning. There are 2 or 3 people doing it right now around the forum.
It's more like 20% to 30% from all those "please show me the research that XYZ is audible"-type of guys blocking any meaningful discussion. Often, the same guys are refusing to do even the simplest experiments and research on their own on stuff like phase distortion or audibility of a polarity flip.
At least that is my impression and my opinion and everybody is invited to disagree.
 

Tell

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Yeah it's probably Eric Alexander that set up an AI bot to mess with ASR ;o
 

tmtomh

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To @antcollinet 's point, I am familiar with sealioning (and, alas, with most other forms of online trolling and rhetorical fallacies), and it certainly crossed my mind.

I do tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt a bit longer than some others do, and maybe longer than I should.

At any rate, my perception of what @sunjam is doing is something I mentioned a few comments ago as the one thing that folks shouldn't do and that is pretty much guaranteed to produce pushback here: start from the conviction, without evidence, that an audible difference exists, and then direct all of your technological and scientific questions and "concerns" towards trying to find some sliver of uncertainty or possibility to preserve the idea that what you think you know might have a scientific or objective empirical basis.

This kind of approach leads to cherry-picking information, asking people to prove a negative, and drawing unwarranted conclusions from bits of fact - all of which are on display in this thread.
 

Purité Audio

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You have a crystal clear view. I agreed 100%

I have a feeling that it is a norm here you have to back up every single word you said with evidence. Even when you share something that you explicitly mentioned it is your own experience/feeling, people would still ask you for the proof.

It would just block the idea sharing and meaningful discussion, IMO.

FYI, I got such treament for the very first few posts I have since I joined: Is there any budget DAC for DSD1024? | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

BTW, I have a feeling that HiRes, Upsampling, DSD are like "taboo" topics here. People would like to stop it asap. Are these really topics that have no value for any meaningful discussion?
There are plenty of other sites where you can post anecdote and it is welcomed!
Keith
 

KSTR

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BTW, I have a feeling that HiRes, Upsampling, DSD are like "taboo" topics here. People would like to stop it asap. Are these really topics that have no value for any meaningful discussion?
Looks like, these days. ASR has developed a lot of group think over time which hardened up the red lines and made the group decision what's beyond one of those red lines and what is not very binary and non-debatable. Crustification at work. <-- strictly IHMO, of course.

ASR is still full of valuable information and of course Amir's review work is outstanding as it creates a data pool for comparisons like we never had before.
 

Talisman

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I come in just to ask what the heck there is to comment again and again on a thread like this, which keeps coming back to the homepage....
No. Upsampling makes no sense for listening, it wouldn't make sense even if it were actually real data, let alone like this.
Hardly anyone could recognize a 320 mp3 from a flac and we still have these mental masturbations
 

antcollinet

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Looks like, these days. ASR has developed a lot of group think over time which hardened up the red lines and made the group decision what's beyond one of those red lines and what is not very binary and non-debatable. Crustification at work. <-- strictly IHMO, of course.
That is always a risk with any internet based echo chamber as ASR (at least in part) is, though whether that is actually happening here could be debated.

If it is, the way to challenge it is with scientifically valid and engineering based evidence. Papers, maths, quality measurements, arguments grounded in solid engineering, examples of scientifically valid observations, etc etc.

Not with anecdote, subjective "impressions", misinterpretation of technical documents, and opinions largely based on guesswork.
 

Brian Hall

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Common sense is the problem here I think.

Do we recall who is Galileo Galilei? and what happned to him due to the "common sense" in his time about Geocentric model?

Science is the key to break all these "common sense".

To be specific, I am talking about rigorous science (that supported by peer reviewed research) instead of some pseudo science, common sense claim.

You are on the side of ignorance. The side that would have opposed Galilio. Both science and common sense are against everything you are posting.

Continue if you wish. I am done with your bs.
 

MaxwellsEq

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My summary:

1. The designers and manufacturers of DACs know how they perform each processing step, but it's unlikely that they will let us access that information without NDAs. Based on data sheets, subject matter experts can make excellent informed hypotheses about what each part does.

Because of this, only the designers/manufacturers know for certain whether their method of sample-clocking has fewer or lesser artefacts than doing it in software externally ahead of feeding the DAC. But they are unlikely to reveal this information (except under NDA).

For the rest of us, we have to depend on measurements of the black-box DAC as implemented by manufacturers of commercial products. From these tests (such as done by Amir), it's hard to see how software-first conversions can create benefits which are audible.
 

Brian Hall

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My summary:

1. The designers and manufacturers of DACs know how they perform each processing step, but it's unlikely that they will let us access that information without NDAs. Based on data sheets, subject matter experts can make excellent informed hypotheses about what each part does.

Because of this, only the designers/manufacturers know for certain whether their method of sample-clocking has fewer or lesser artefacts than doing it in software externally ahead of feeding the DAC. But they are unlikely to reveal this information (except under NDA).

For the rest of us, we have to depend on measurements of the black-box DAC as implemented by manufacturers of commercial products. From these tests (such as done by Amir), it's hard to see how software-first conversions can create benefits which are audible.

Based on tests it is obvious that extra upsampling is useless and probably even counterproductive.
 

danadam

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It means there is no conclusive result yet. We need to do more testing, measurements, etc... if we want to find a definite answer for the question like "is there any evidence to prove there is audible different from the audio signal reconstructed by using a modern DAC with and without external upsampling".
And how will you decide that the definite answer was found?

Consider two scenarios:

Scenario 1: the definite answer is "yes".
In that scenario you keep looking and eventually, after a year or 100 years or 1000 years, you find the proof that there's is an audible difference. Cool, you've found the answer, case closed (possibly by your great-great-grandchildren).

Scenario 2: the definite answer is "no".
In that scenario you keep looking but you don't find any proof. When will you stop and decide that you've found the answer and it is a "no"?
 

BDWoody

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You can also view it this way: "there is no evidence to prove there is no audible difference from the sofware-first conversions created"

Ok, we've had enough of a Tempest in Russell's Teapot for a while. I think a little break to do more of your own research might be great.
 

pkane

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Looks like, these days. ASR has developed a lot of group think over time which hardened up the red lines and made the group decision what's beyond one of those red lines and what is not very binary and non-debatable. Crustification at work. <-- strictly IHMO, of course.

ASR is still full of valuable information and of course Amir's review work is outstanding as it creates a data pool for comparisons like we never had before.

I agree, there's a certain part of ASR membership that just jumps into action to defend the perceived red line whenever some newcomer comes and tries to challenge it. I see it more as an ASR self-defense mechanism than anything more sinister. There's too much groupthink on the outside of ASR, where nothing is ever challenged, and any challenge is automatically dismissed "because your system isn't resolving enough or you are deaf".

The opposite of what happens on ASR happens daily on many other fora. The direct outcome of this inability to think critically are products like PGGB, for example (directly applicable to this thread). PGGB is the direct result of lack of critical thinking. The author claims the error of -600dB or better for his reconstruction algorithm. Tell me, Klaus, would you spend $1500 on a software package that off-line converts your entire library to DSD1024 over a period of weeks, requiring a PC that needs hundreds of Gigabytes of memory, 20+ cores CPU, GPU, and tons of storage? Well, there are many that are buying it. In fact, they hear major audible improvements, even compared to the already major audible improvement that were claimed previously by HQPlayer users.

Heck, some actually started running their library through BOTH, PGGB and then through HQPlayer for an even "better" result :eek: In my view, it's the direct outcome of audiophiles not being challenged to think for themselves, believing marketing or the larger groupthink that permeates that world of "everything matters," and that "science can't know everything," and that only their flawed perception can be the judge.

Critical thinking is a skill, and must be learned. I see less and less of it being taught in schools. Unfortunately, an internet forum is not a place to undo the damage caused by the primary education system -- most of us here are not teachers, and it's not our job to re-educate others. I'd much rather see newcomers be challenged to use critical thinking, to spend time investigating and learning, rather than automatically assuming that just because "I heard it" it must be so. But I understand why this is not so after many dozens of new users each week start posting the same exact boring, unsubstantiated ideas and thoughts that have not been subjected to even an ounce of critical thinking.
 

Purité Audio

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Couple of ‘Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy’ quotes on the front page surely it can’t be all that bad!
I use to occasionally see Douglas Adams in ‘Subjective Audio’ in Mornington Crescent way back when.
Keith
 

pkane

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Couple of ‘Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy’ quotes on the front page surely it can’t be all that bad!
I use to occasionally see Douglas Adams in ‘Subjective Audio’ in Mornington Crescent way back when.
Keith
It's actually a technical marvel of a product. Completely useless for the main claimed benefit of audible improvements, but then, internally it uses 256 bits precision for calculations, runs slow, costs a lot, and requires a major investment in time and equipment to operate. High cost, extreme complexity and inconvenience, all backed up by extreme claims. This is what drives a large part of the audiophile consumer market.
 
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