Tekton M-Lore Speaker Review

[Selkirks]

Did Eric ever provide his own measurements or a valid counter argument to the revised review measurements? I might have missed it.

 

[doug s.]

When reviewing audio equipment remember Julian Hirsch, never say anything bad, just be incredibly polite and vague

i remember reading this comment about julian hirsch; not sure who it was attributed to; i believe it was from a secret not-so-much admirer:

“Of all the audio products I’ve reviewed, this is one of them.”

doug s.

 

[amirm]

Did Eric ever provide his own measurements or a valid counter argument to the revised review measurements? I might have missed it.

Never. To this date, there hasn't been a single measurement from him. Not to address what I have measured or in general.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Sorry for a bit OT but if you’re looking for an $800 true 92dB bookshelf with published measurements, check out the Klippel designed Ascend CMT-340 SE2

Well, no. Ascend CMT-340 SE2 is a center speaker with no bass output whatsoever - in contrast to Tekton M-Lore. And it has equally bad frequency response.
It is difficult to find a good "full-range" (2 or 3-way loudspeaker with enough bass) with higher than 88 dB sensitivity and price around $750 a pair. As I mentioned before, Focal Chora 816 has 91 dB sensitivity, excellent frequency response, very good design and finish, but it costs $1000 a pair.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Never. To this date, there hasn't been a single measurement from him. Not to address what I have measured or in general.

That is why I wrote this:

7. Reactions from Eric Alexander (Tekton) to both Amir's and Erin's reviews were catastrophically bad and wrong. Also, looking at his strange comments here, I will speculate: he hasn't designed the crossovers in Tekton loudspeakers - none of them.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

@Eric Alexander hasn’t been online since Friday. What are the chances that he’ll ever appear on ASR again?

 

[antcollinet]

if people were only criticizing the speaker behavior and not the speaker mfr owner's behavior, this thread would be 10 pages long, if that; not pushing 100 pages long...

doug s.

There is no problem criticising the behaviour.

But saying "x is an ass" is an insult, not a behavioural criticism. Similarly "x is behaving like an ass" If you use insulting words you are being insulting.

Instead pick the specific behaviour you want to criticise and do so.

Hope that helps.

 

[CleanSound]

@Eric Alexander hasn’t been online since Friday. What are the chances that he’ll ever appear on ASR again?

Hard to predict, he comes and goes, but after Erin's second review and then him taking down his last two videos and then posting this on his Facebook group:

Perhaps, he finally engaged a PR firm for crisis management?

He also is now trying to change the topic to something that "vouches" for his technical design achievements:

But no apology to Amir.

 

[Dave Bullet]

I thought I'd try to reverse engineer the M-Lore as a bit of an experiment.

The speaker dimensions indicate about a 35L internal volume (without bracing). The design quotes a 38Hz bass extension (likely F10) we get the following response:

We can see at only 19.2w we both start to exceed a port velocity where chuffing occurs, but also cone excursion starts to be exceeded (we're only dealing with a small Xmax woofer here with Xmax = 3.2mm). We basically max this design out at about 102dB at 45Hz

 

[AdamG]

Never. To this date, there hasn't been a single measurement from him. Not to address what I have measured or in general.

There are no measurements and there never have been. At this point the only conclusion we can come to is he has never measured his speakers and probably doesn’t know how. Otherwise we would be talking about all the measurements he provided.

 

[tmtomh]

There are no measurements and there never have been. At this point the only conclusion we can come to is he has never measured his speakers and probably doesn’t know how. Otherwise we would be talking about all the measurements he provided.

And he wouldn’t have emailed Amir someone else’s measurement of the raw response of the woofer as if that meant anything.

 

[tmtomh]

Hard to predict, he comes and goes, but after Erin's second review and then him taking down his last two videos and them posting this on his Facebook group:



View attachment 363819
Perhaps, he finally engaged a PR firm for crisis management?

He also is now trying to change the topic to something that "vouches" for his measurements:
View attachment 363823
But no apology to Amir.

Under that BACCH-dsp post, Eric/Tekton is getting roasted in the comments. Not saying this to pile on - just observing that it's probably going to take a little while for his behavior in this recent incident to be forgotten. He's made his bed and it looks like he's going to have to sleep in it for at least a little while.

 

[AdamG]

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Hard to predict, he comes and goes, but after Erin's second review and then him taking down his last two videos and them posting this on his Facebook group:


View attachment 363819
Perhaps, he finally engaged a PR firm for crisis management?

He also is now trying to change the topic to something that "vouches" for his measurements:
View attachment 363823
But no apology to Amir.

I wonder how @Edgar Choueiri feels about this?

 

[Dave Bullet]

After some import and manipulation of factory measurements of the Eminence Alpha-8A and (assumed tweeter) Peerless BC25TG15-04 I came up with this guessed crossover for the M Lore. The manipulation comprises subtracting IEC baffle and applying enclosure response to the Alpha-8A and baffle diffraction to both woofer and tweeter.

The top left chart shows the combined on axis frequency response (black) with Klippel measured on axis response (From Amir's first post) overlaid in purple. There's not a great correlation with the Alpha 8A and some discrepancies with the tweeter response (assuming I even have the right tweeter). In both cases, minimum phase data was applied with 14mm offset for the tweeter (assuming a woofer listening / design axis):

The crossover for the above is:

 

[PowerSerge]

Erin's new review, taken together with @amirm 's additions to his original review, conclusively shut the door on this matter, to any honest, literate observer.

1. Amir has recalculated the M-Lore's response based on @Eric Alexander 's precise instructions for the acoustic center point (6.5" off the conventional center), and the results show no significant difference in the far-field response, just as Amir (and several other members) had predicted.

2. Erin has remeasured the Troubadour with the official feet screwed into the holes (the through-holes ), and the impedance bump Erin mentioned is still present, at the identical frequency and magnitude:

View attachment 363273

3. Erin discovered that if he turns the speaker upside-down, placing the top on a flat, rigid surface, the bump disappears - meaning the bump was almost certainly produced by a cabinet resonance just as Erin stated in his original review. So Eric Alexander was wrong about the impact the feet would have on the impedance bump measurement, and he was wrong about the underlying question of whether the feet were the cause of the impedance bump.

4. Erin's new frequency response measurement of the Troubador using Tekton's recommended acoustical center varies from his original measurement in the key lower treble area in a way that looks pretty much exactly like Amir's recalculation of his M-Lore Klippel data using that same Tekton center point. And the new response in both cases differs by just fractions of a dB in most places. Repeatability of results = conclusive. Also, Erin notes that his original subjective review focused on the Troubador being a little hot in a broad area around 4kHz and a bit attenuated in the higher treble. The new measurements show that the treble is a little less attenuated above 12kHz - but they also show the single largest difference - an almost 2dB increase in the "hot" area between 4-5kHz. So the overall audible effect is either identical with the "correct" acoustic center, or even slightly worse because of the expansion of the higher-amplitude "hot" range around 4-5kHz.

5. Likewise, Erin also compared the frequency response measurement of feet vs no-feet using Tekton's preferred acoustic center point. It shows zero difference from about 180Hz upward, and just as with the previous item, from 180Hz downward the differences are quite small and a mixed bag when it comes to better/worse. With the feet, you get about 0.5-1dB more bass SPL from 40-60Hz. On the other hand, without the feet you get about 0.5-1dB less shelving - aka more bass - across a broader range, about 60-120Hz. So again, no real difference and without the feet arguably gives you slightly more audible bass benefit on balance (especially because Erin's distortion measurements show no significant change in distortion, so that slightly increased bass region without the feet should sound no more or less "clean" than with).

View attachment 363277


6. The differences are sufficiently inconsequential that Erin has inserted his original subjective portion of his review from the last video, unaltered, in this new review, because none of the changes impacted his listening impressions. I think this also conclusively answers the question of whether or not Eric Alexander's intimidation tactics might have cowed Erin into being gentler or pulling his punches in his evaluation - not one bit. (Not to mention that his original evaluation wasn't even negative!).

7. Finally, Erin has posted screenshots of the emails, in my view clearly demonstrating the inconsistency of @Eric Alexander 's behavior, the unrealistic time demands he tried to make of Erin (asking him to respond literally within minutes), and the untenability of his YouTube video claim that he was not trying to threaten anyone with legal action. Erin also notes that he never wants to hear about Tekton again.

@Eric Alexander , as far as this particular controversy goes, you're done: your claims about the measurements have been disproven - most notably, your claim that Erin created a "false narrative" by attributing the impedance bump to a cabinet resonance and not the absence of the feet, has been totally debunked. So you are the only one who has created a false narrative, defaming Erin's and Amir's measurements and falsely impugning their credibility and integrity as reviewers. From the information available to us in the public, you have also failed to follow through on your statement that you would provide your own measurements, and the disparity between your claims about your tactics and behavior in your YouTube videos and your evident behavior and tactics in the emails Amir and Erin have shared, are on the internet for everyone to see and judge for themselves. You haven't just burned a bridge - you've napalmed it.

I'm just some guy on the internet, but for what it's worth I suggest you take a step back and reflect at some length and depth on your actions here. One thing that seems clear is that you made the oldest "audiophile" error in the book: you made absolute factual assertions about measurable and audible impacts of certain design features (feet) and listening modifications (acoustic center) based on sound acoustic principles, but without any knowledge of how large or small the actual impact of those principles would be. Audiophiles do this all the time - they dismiss measurements and instead take the word of someone they trust because of their engineering knowledge and/or their "ears." It's the classic Argument from Authority rhetorical fallacy. The only difference in this case is that you argued from your own authority.

@MattHooper is wise in the above comment - it's not easy being a human being, and so I am not saying this with relish or joy. But in my view it's quite clear that you have no one but yourself to blame for where this situation has gotten.

 

[cavedriver]

I should have looked a little harder earlier. Stereophile just published another Tekton review just 10 days ago. Model is the "Moab Be", so this literally is the one where someone took a speaker with a base price of ~$5,000 and added a $12,000 upcharge to replace all the tweeters with Satori Be tweeters. From JA's measurements I'm not getting much of a feel for this speaker. Too hot by about 5 dB from 33 to 200 Hz, then ~3 dB dip from 600 to 700 Hz (just below the very precisely called out "772" Hz crossover), one of the hardest loads John says he's ever measured, and some strange off-axis behavior again, especially in the vertical, as we could see with Stereophile's older Impact Monitor review (but not as bad this time?). To be fair, quite a few speakers have a bass bump somewhere in the 50~200 Hz range, including recently the Wharfedale Dovedales at $7k a pair. John very kindly struggles to say something positive about the speaker at the end of the measurements. Personally, I just can't see spending $12000 on a tweeter upgrade, nor wasting half the available beryllium diaphragm material in the western hemisphere on one mediocre speaker.

Image per Stereophile courtesy of JA (Thank you!):

and a link to the review:

Tekton Moab Be loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 4: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Too hot by about 5 dB from 33 to 200 Hz,

That is mostly from the nearfield measurement technique, in the real world it should be much flatter, but the peak at 100 Hz will stay, although not so big.

 

[Dave Bullet]

Yes - Stereophile just splice the nearfield to the farfield without applying baffle step losses to the nearfield measurement. this may result in between 3 - 6dB boost that may not be there in the actual speaker.

 

[ROOSKIE]

7. Reactions from Eric Alexander (Tekton) to both Amir's and Erin's reviews were catastrophically bad and wrong. Also, looking at his strange comments here, I will speculate: he hasn't designed the crossovers in Tekton loudspeakers - none of them.

Odd, I had not considered this.
In retrospect it certainly seems plausible that the design work was contracted out.
Obviously we don't know for sure though.

There are no measurements and there never have been. At this point the only conclusion we can come to is he has never measured his speakers and probably doesn’t know how. Otherwise we would be talking about all the measurements he provided.

I am no fan now of Tekton but it there is no reason to to conclude this.

I've DIYed, there is no way they would be as good as they are if someone was not doing some basic, even fairly detailed measurements.
Especially with some of them measuring quite good given the design complexity and uniqueness. (Impact Monitor comes to mind & the Troubadour also really is decent given the design)
Even this M-Lore is fairly decent relative to worst case, given the naturally uneven large Eminence pro woofer and 1" non waveguided tweeter.

I could think some are fairing better than others due to a change in whoever did the crossovers. Employees and contractors can change over time or tackle different units.

Surly Tekton measured, I'd wager 100% that there is no chance they did not.

He should not have offered measurements of his own if wasn't really going to. The only thing I feel we ought to conclude is his word is not good. That said try asking JBL(or most manufacturers) for measurements of their new stuff ---> good luck (but they won't say yes and then ghost).