Tekton M-Lore Speaker Review

[AscendDF]

If you are bored at some point it would be really interesting to see the deviations in the low frequency at Seas compared to the NFS, then I could theoretically correct for that.

Feel free to contact me by email. I'll have to find the data for you, I am a bit unorganized right now, but I will make it happen. And yes, theoretically, you should be able to correct for this by comparing the 2 measurements. We actually do this all the time so we can get more accurate production line measurements.

 

[DSJR]

If the new measurements are basically the same on the Troubador with the feet installed, Eric will claim that this was a used and abused speaker and that something is broken and wrong with it and that it does not represent the Troubador model he is selling. He is always going to have some type of excuse. Eric has already said that something looks faded and wrong with the woofer in the Mini Lore that Amir tested.

Maybe @Steve Dallas could conform please, but isn't the basic mid-bass to upper mid balance of that M-Lore driver perhaps *good* for the guitar-speaker role the driver may have? Just throwing it out there and not criticising the driver either if it's being used away from design function here

 

[Mark617]

Thanks for all the detailed data and relevant arguments, @Eric Alexander !

I'm now waiting for the next video promising the next video will tease a next video stating that measurements perhaps could appear in another video. Or maybe another video before or after that to say you're producing these.

I told you all, this will be a long Netflix series following its own dramatic pacing. We could have never imagined coming to ASR and be presented with performances from yet another self appointed victim of objectivism and facts... There are so many in this unjust world.

 

[thewas]

It shows also of not real acoustic engineering competence when the acoustic axis of such an asymmetric design (which has creates a tilted acoustic axis) is given in terms of a displacement (like in this example supposedly the centre of the woofer) and not an angle as obviously it will depend on the listening or measuring distance.

 

[René - Acculution.com]

As you guessed later, Klippel NFS fully captures the response of the speaker in 3-D space. The reference axis is just a presentation value. All the data is captured independent of it.

I just went through and recompuated the reference axis being 5 inches higher. Review is updated with more detail. But here is the key results:

And this is exactly what I said to Eric. He simply said he disagrees but provided no comparison like I am showing above. Or explanation of why that would make a difference in far field listening. Or how a customer was supposed to sit to have their ear constantly be at that precise angle.

Above is why I don't jump when the manufacturer says this and that is wrong. The responsibility is theirs to prove their point, not just claim it. Otherwise, it winds up making me do a bunch of busy work per above.

I am not guessing at above. As I have mentioned, I have made this adjustment many times with similar results. Unless you are moving way higher or lower, a few inches doesn't make a difference.

For completeness, can you also extract the step response for this axis? Not that it looked bad at all actually for the initial axis, but when the claim is 'perfect step response', it would be interesting to see it for the new axis, if it is not too much of hassle, of course.

 

[Mnyb]

As you guessed later, Klippel NFS fully captures the response of the speaker in 3-D space. The reference axis is just a presentation value. All the data is captured independent of it.

I just went through and recompuated the reference axis being 5 inches higher. Review is updated with more detail. But here is the key results:

And this is exactly what I said to Eric. He simply said he disagrees but provided no comparison like I am showing above. Or explanation of why that would make a difference in far field listening. Or how a customer was supposed to sit to have their ear constantly be at that precise angle.

Above is why I don't jump when the manufacturer says this and that is wrong. The responsibility is theirs to prove their point, not just claim it. Otherwise, it winds up making me do a bunch of busy work per above.

I am not guessing at above. As I have mentioned, I have made this adjustment many times with similar results. Unless you are moving way higher or lower, a few inches doesn't make a difference.

Do you think plugging the holes for the feet is an equally small difference ?

I voted “not terrible” and have not changed my vote since the debacle . Its simply not for my taste in speakers . But i can se why some would like a somewhat bigger and louder more dynamic speakers at a budget for some musical tastes .

At a budget you usually end up with a small speaker as a compromise this is another kind of compromise, not what I think is good . But there are customers for it . Hence its not broken.

 

[tomtoo]

If the new measurements are basically the same on the Troubador with the feet installed, Eric will claim that this was a used and abused speaker and that something is broken and wrong with it and that it does not represent the Troubador model he is selling. He is always going to have some type of excuse. Eric has already said that something looks faded and wrong with the woofer in the Mini Lore that Amir tested.

.
Yes but with every new false claim. His thrust shrinks to nothing.

 

[Roland68]

So still no measurements. Only verbal claims of mistakes in my review. He also misstates my response to him which I post earlier:

--------
Dear Mr. Alexander:

You sent me a sent a message earlier today but closed the conversation so I could not respond. Here is that reply.

I would be more than happy to post your response video as a counter to my review and promote it to home page so it is noticed. I always appreciate and welcome manufacturer comments and this is no exception. Please provide a link when it is ready.

As to pulling the review today, you have provided no information as to why my review is erroneous. Or how you have been injured in any way. I can't just censor reviews because a company asks for it. When other companies properly object, they provide their own measurements to counter mine. You did not do that in the comment section of the public review thread, nor are you doing it here. I hope you appreciate how bad it would look if I went around and hid negative reviews just because a company asks for it. It would damage my reputation as an objective and unbliased reporter of testing that I provide, and put me "in bed" with companies at the expense of consumers.

Of course, if you have found real, valid issues in my reviews, I will do everything to correct including marking the review or even deleting it. But per above, you have not done so.

As to threat of legal action, please keep the following in mind:

1. Your speaker was tested using state of the art Klippel Near-field scanner (retail cost about $100,000). Same tests were run as I have run on some 200 speakers.

2. Testing complies with national and US standards bodies of ANSI/CEA/CTA-2034. No special tests were created to make your product look different in testing. Same objective evaluations were applied to countless other speakers in the market and data generated. My testing is authoritative and accepted by industry luminaries as being trustworthy as it backs decades of research into what measurements most correlate with listener/buyer preference. The data mostly speaks for itself, leaving me little room to opine personally.

3. You do not provide any such measurements on your speaker so it is impossible to know if measurement data is in error or not.

4. You were not mentioned in the review, nor did I know who you were until you post in the review thread. I have said nothing negative about you personally, or your design skills. My assessment is only about the product in hand, the Tektron M-Lore Mini.

5. Along the same lines, I made no assessment whatsoever about any other speakers you have designed. I have not tested them and would not make any such comments without the type of data I gathered on M-Lore Mini.

6. In your response to my review, you stated: "The facts are most audiophiles don't go for the frequency response and corrections the reviewer has suggested. " Bolding mine. If that is a fact, then there should have been no negative impact on you or sale of your products. In fact you stated that you can design speakers that comply with above standard with ease but choosing not to. If you were wrong about this "fact," then seeing how you have the ability to produce products that comply with the standard, you should be able to pivot quickly and have even a nicer business by taking advantage of our membership's interest in such products. The review then has provided valuable information to you on a new direction for your product development.

7. You offered to provide a speaker that performs well in my testing. Members took you up on that offer to either send a speaker to me, or another reviewer with similar testing ("Erin's Audio Corner.") You never acknowledged if would do this. I would imagine if your reputation was harmed as a designer, being able to follow through with your promise would help mitigate that. But again, I have said nothing negative about you. Indeed, I believe your assertion that you can design a much better speaker that would do well in my testing. Other companies such as Ascend have done exactly that. Your skills are not in question. Your design decisions to go against decades of peer reviewed research as to what makes a good speaker, are.

8. For your part, you made personal accusations about my knowledge of audio industry, listener preferences, etc. And now making legal threats. Please carefully review your conduct as I too have options for legal action although I have a very thick skin when it comes to such proclamations.

So please follow up with a link when you have the video ready if that is your only form of response. I will post it to ASR as promised above regardless of veracity of the information in there. That will be the proper next step before deciding what needs to be done. Should you choose to take legal action without merit, please be ready for strong defense and counter action.

Sincerely,
Amir Majidimehr

-------------

As I have highlighted here in red, I absolutely was open to modifying or even deleting the review. All he had to do was tell me specifically what is wrong in it.

This was his response to me on march 15h:

"Amir,

Respectfully, there are absolute and factual "real, valid issues" in your review. Why do think I'm upset? Next time you review one of my products at least spend five minutes on the phone with me so you get things correct. You believe you're a professional and that you've done a service to the audio community. The facts are you didn't measure the loudspeaker correctly and you should have reached out prior to reviewing my product so the review was truthful and accurate.

Take your Tekton Design Mini Lore review down - period. If it's not promptly pulled I will post my YouTube video outlining the mistakes [with measurements] contained in the review.

Eric Alexander
801-836-0764"

[highlight mine]
Notice the repeated demand to take down the review without providing any specifics as to what is wrong. And how he said he would produce a video nearly a month ago with the supposed measurement errors.

This was my answer:

Eric,

I didn’t know you so there was no option to contact you personally. Now that I know you, I will contact you in the future.

For now, please go ahead and publish the video. In no way or shape do I want you to stop from doing that and actually welcome it. Look forward to watching it and seeing what your argument is. As I promised below, I will highlight it as well in the review and the forum for membership/visitors to know your side of the story.

Amir

He then responded with this:

Amir,

Once I post the video there's no turning back. I think our lawyers should talk about this before I do this. Please provide me with your legal counsel contact information and I'll have my guy reach out to him.

You're not the first person to review my product and come to flawed/false conclusions that paint me in a false light. I could arrange to line you up with a past reviewer that might be able to help you with your pride and help you see the light so to speak. Would you like to consider speaker with this person?

Eric

Notice the threat of serious litigation in red (highlight mine).

My response:

Once more, I am not responsive to claims or threats like this. If you have evidence or data that demonstrates “flaws” in my review, you need to present that. You can do so privately, or publicly.

Keep in mind that you were given plenty of opportunity to make your case when you went into the review thread more than a month ago and failed to do so.

If you can’t do that, then have your attorney write me a letter indicating what he thinks the case is. My attorney trusts me to handle frivolous claims like this on my own at this point.

As to having a track record of threatening other reviewers to do as you say, I look forward to interrogatories with you and impacted parties.

Amir

Let me skip a few more emails and show this response from me to him on March 21:

"
> Let's not shift the discussion and lets focus on a flawed review.

What is flawed Eric? What is the reason for not answering this question no matter how many times I ask? I can’t address your concerns if you don’t tell me what they are.

Based on interaction below, I am starting to think you don’t even know how your product measures and how it differs from what the results of my objective testing. The advertising on your website also seems false or at least misleading.

> The facts are you published an unauthorized review without consulting me and got important things wrong.

Unauthorized? Without consulting? Neither the owner nor I have any such obligation Eric. In America we enjoy broad protected speech rights that allow us to review anything we want without permission or consulting with the company. Consumer Reports Magazine buys their own products and reviews them (as I do frequently). You think Ford can go after them for lack of authorization if it gets a negative rating? There are millions of products reviewed online and in youtube without said “authorization.” What about Amazon and all the product reviews there? You think they are worried companies are going after their customers???

I highly recommend that you read FTC’s CFRA guidelines as you clearly are unaware of laws that are meant to protect consumers from company harassments when writing negative reviews: https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidan...review-fairness-act-what-businesses-need-know

“The Consumer Review Fairness Act (CRFA) protects people’s ability to share their honest opinions about a business’s products, services, or conduct, in any forum, including social media. Is your company complying?

Contracts that prohibit honest reviews, or threaten legal action over them, harm people who rely on reviews when making their purchase decisions. But another group is also harmed when others try to squelch honest negative reviews: businesses that work hard to earn positive reviews.

The Consumer Review Fairness Act was passed in response to reports that some businesses try to prevent people from giving honest reviews about products or services they received. Some companies put contract provisions in place, including in their online terms and conditions, that allowed them to sue or penalize consumers for posting negative reviews.

What kind of reviews does the law protect?

The law protects a broad variety of honest consumer assessments, including online reviews, social media posts, uploaded photos, videos, etc. And it doesn’t just cover product reviews.

[…]

The wisest policy: Let people speak honestly about your products and their experience with your company.”

While you and I don’t have a contract anyway, I highly suggest you pay attention to the sentences in red.

And what are those “important things?” If you can’t even articulate them, how important can they be?

You said if I had discussed the review beforehand, we could have sorted things out. Now that you have the full review, and my attention, you are failing to engage in any material discussion about the review. Clearly nothing would have been resolved if I had consulted you as proven by this communication.

Anyway, the ball is in your court to tell me what is wrong with the review. Until you do, there is nothing I can do for you.

Amir"

I will save the rest for later. But can you imagine putting up with this kind of interaction with Eric day in and day out, and now, after all this, watch him claim I was unwilling to change my review? And to say that in a video with zero measurements and facts?

How could the whole thing have gone if @Eric Alexander had handled the whole matter more professionally and in a more relaxed manner?
What could have happened if the first message to @amirm after the test had looked like this and what effect would that have had on the members and readers in this forum?

1. I am pleased that you measured and tested one of our most proven and best-selling speakers. I am not familiar with the Klippel measuring system and therefore find it difficult to understand your measurement and the result.
But I would be happy if we could connect and exchange ideas at short notice.

2. I noticed a few things about the speaker I measured that I would like to check. It seems to be an older model and maybe a few things are out of order after such a long time. Please send me the speakers so that I can check them free of charge for the customer and, if necessary, repair and overhaul them. Of course I will cover the shipping costs.

3. I would be happy to send you a few of the current speaker model for a test. Please take into account that the loudspeaker, even if it does not deliver optimal values in the Kippel measuring system, has been tuned for a fun-oriented music listener and area of application. But for extensive room EQ/PEQ measures it is the wrong model in my program.
We are currently checking whether we can also offer a model with a different crossover configuration in order to meet other requirements. Your support and that of the forum would be very welcome, as would a test of this vote.

4. The fact that the pierced threaded inserts for the feet/spikes can actually be a problem really hit me. Especially because it can lead to a customer's sound worsening if the feet are missing or different. The effects of the uncovered bores, such as flow noises or volume changes, are of course not beneficial for the measurement either.
Basically, I have to be grateful to you for the tip. We will leave the holes as they are because it is cost-effective and practical due to the large adjustment height. In the future, however, we will supply additional plugs/threaded inserts for closing and place a note on the box, in the instructions and on the website. Of course, all buyers of this speaker can request a set of plugs/threaded inserts free of charge.
It would be nice if you would point this out in the test and link to the relevant page on our homepage.

The few hundred dollars for effort, shipping and parts would have been priceless as a marketing investment...

 

[tomtoo]

How could the whole thing have gone if @Eric Alexander had handled the whole matter more professionally and in a more relaxed manner?
What could have happened if the first message to @amirm after the test had looked like this and what effect would that have had on the members and readers in this forum?

1. I am pleased that you measured and tested one of our most proven and best-selling speakers. I am not familiar with the Klippel measuring system and therefore find it difficult to understand your measurement and the result.
But I would be happy if we could connect and exchange ideas at short notice.

2. I noticed a few things about the speaker I measured that I would like to check. It seems to be an older model and maybe a few things are out of order after such a long time. Please send me the speakers so that I can check them free of charge for the customer and, if necessary, repair and overhaul them. Of course I will cover the shipping costs.

3. I would be happy to send you a few of the current speaker model for a test. Please take into account that the loudspeaker, even if it does not deliver optimal values in the Kippel measuring system, has been tuned for a fun-oriented music listener and area of application. But for extensive room EQ/PEQ measures it is the wrong model in my program.
We are currently checking whether we can also offer a model with a different crossover configuration in order to meet other requirements. Your support and that of the forum would be very welcome, as would a test of this vote.

4. The fact that the pierced threaded inserts for the feet/spikes can actually be a problem really hit me. Especially because it can lead to a customer's sound worsening if the feet are missing or different. The effects of the uncovered bores, such as flow noises or volume changes, are of course not beneficial for the measurement either.
Basically, I have to be grateful to you for the tip. We will leave the holes as they are because it is cost-effective and practical due to the large adjustment height. In the future, however, we will supply additional plugs/threaded inserts for closing and place a note on the box, in the instructions and on the website. Of course, all buyers of this speaker can request a set of plugs/threaded inserts free of charge.
It would be nice if you would point this out in the test and link to the relevant page on our homepage.

The few hundred dollars for effort, shipping and parts would have been priceless as a marketing investment...

That would be the right reaction. But now the real damage is already done.

 

[DSJR]

As you guessed later, Klippel NFS fully captures the response of the speaker in 3-D space. The reference axis is just a presentation value. All the data is captured independent of it.

I just went through and recompuated the reference axis being 5 inches higher. Review is updated with more detail. But here is the key results:

And this is exactly what I said to Eric. He simply said he disagrees but provided no comparison like I am showing above. Or explanation of why that would make a difference in far field listening. Or how a customer was supposed to sit to have their ear constantly be at that precise angle.

Above is why I don't jump when the manufacturer says this and that is wrong. The responsibility is theirs to prove their point, not just claim it. Otherwise, it winds up making me do a bunch of busy work per above.

I am not guessing at above. As I have mentioned, I have made this adjustment many times with similar results. Unless you are moving way higher or lower, a few inches doesn't make a difference.

For what is/was a very cheap floor stander made in the US rather than extremely cheaply in the far east, I don't think that performance is bad at all really. Sure you can do better if you want, but for a speaker that I was told ten or so years ago was a full range driver with a tweeter 'helping out' up top (that's how I understood it to be back then), I'd say it's a very fair performance! So sad all the other 'stuff' has come about since as I still feel it was so unnecessary as I suspect most of us do.

 

[KSTR]

For what is/was a very cheap floor stander made in the US rather than extremely cheaply in the far east, I don't think that performance is bad at all really.

Exactly. Except for the 700Hz hump the on-axis performance is quite good.

 

[dasdoing]

he says that he sold none since (because of) the review. he removed it from his webpage.
all in all this video is clearly geared at customers, not a real response

 

[KSTR]

Not that it looked bad at all actually for the initial axis, but when the claim is 'perfect step response', it would be interesting to see it for the new axis, if it is not too much of hassle, of course.

Given that the far-field response is calculated for a distance of 3m, with a height offset of only 12.7cm the angle change is so small that there will be no effective change in the step response, following the equally irrelevant change of the magnitude response.

"Perfect step response" may only mean here that it follows the summed allpass response from a textbook acoustic Linkwitz-Riley crossover. To verify, we would need the individual woofer and tweeter responses.
It sure does not mean a "transient-perfect" allpass-free response.

 

[Easternlethal]

Imagine being on the phone to his lawyers:

EA: Yea it’s me again. Hey.. I want you to talk to Erin and Amir’s lawyers but let them know we’re not suing.”

Lawyer: “What if they tell me to take a hike?”

EA: “I don’t know er… maybe sue them?”

Lawyer: “Er…”

EA: “Oh I’m also going to post a video to say I’m not suing”

Lawyer: “you know I’m a lawyer right?”

 

[René - Acculution.com]

Given that the far-field response is calculated for a distance of 3m, with a height offset of only 12.7cm the angle change is so small that there will be no effective change in the step response, following the equally irrelevant change of the magnitude response.

"Perfect step response" may only mean here that it follows the summed allpass response from a textbook acoustic Linkwitz-Riley crossover. To verify, we would need the individual woofer and tweeter responses.
It sure does not mean a "transient-perfect" allpass-free response.

Sure, but the claim is his, not mine ;-)

 

[Todd k]

Would love to be a fly on the wall at tekton exhibition space at Axpona . I bet Mr A will get avoided like the plague.

 

[tomtoo]

For what is/was a very cheap floor stander made in the US rather than extremely cheaply in the far east, I don't think that performance is bad at all really. Sure you can do better if you want, but for a speaker that I was told ten or so years ago was a full range driver with a tweeter 'helping out' up top (that's how I understood it to be back then), I'd say it's a very fair performance! So sad all the other 'stuff' has come about since as I still feel it was so unnecessary as I suspect most of us do.

I can only talk for my self. After reading the review i thought not bad for what it is. Not perfect but ok for the price. Now this all is gone couse i stoped likeing the company.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Alexander should stop whining and make a better speaker that doesn't require special setup and considerations to deliver decent performance.

Makers such as Magnepan don't whine, demand retractions, or threaten to sue when the speakers show weaknesses in standard tests.

 

[dasdoing]

I understand that this is war, a battle.....but this is a meaningful difference. it is a pretty broadband 1.5dB-ish EQ boost in the treble, and suddenly the crossover doesn't look that broken anymore. also, the dispersion graphs would look better in that area.

 

[KSTR]

Sure, but the claim is his, not mine ;-)

Well, the claim is "perfect" but that's quite vague, not specifying "perfect" with regard to which aspect of a step response.