Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[jtatknox]

Using enough speakers that can play clean up to 110-120dB and as low as 25-30Hz?

I think that I've asked this before, but as an exercise I wonder what people think would be the characteristics of an ideal support speaker. Rythmik FM8 looks good because it can play clean at higher frequencies and also dig deep. 4 x L12 would be more affordable. If you were tasked with building an ART system from scratch, what would be your strategy for the support speakers and why? I'd be interested in what people think about a 2 sub, 4 sub, or even a larger system with surrounds that play deep. What would work well and is also a good value?

 

[Ciobi69]

I think that I've asked this before, but as an exercise I wonder what people think would be the characteristics of an ideal support speaker. Rythmik FM8 looks good because it can play clean at higher frequencies and also dig deep. 4 x L12 would be more affordable. If you were tasked with building an ART system from scratch, what would be your strategy for the support speakers and why? I'd be interested in what people think about a 2 sub, 4 sub, or even a larger system with surrounds that play deep. What would work well and is also a good value?

4 subs would be always the best option, ( obviously they have to be perfectly placed) and the rest could be some almost full range speakers that can go atleast to 40hz

 

[pogo]

To get the most out of ART, the best option is to use powerful full-range speakers in every possible position. ART is not just a subwoofer. SVS, Definitive Technology, ... are already preparing for the future without a sub under ART

 

[ooheadsoo]

To get the most out of ART, the best option is to use powerful full-range speakers in every possible position. ART is not just a subwoofer. SVS, Definitive Technology, ... are already preparing for the future without a sub under ART

Not sure what you're trying to get at here. More bass sources has always been the answer to smoother bass response and lower bass distortion. A $$$$ serious system that uses a $$$$ ART capable receiver is probably going to have enough headroom to take advantage of ART. Will the system eat some headroom? Probably. Will it be enough to matter except for people looking to push the extremes of their system? Not for me.

 

[Dj7675]

To get the most out of ART, the best option is to use powerful full-range speakers in every possible position. ART is not just a subwoofer. SVS, Definitive Technology, ... are already preparing for the future without a sub under ART

ART doesn't care if it is getting the cancellation signal from a sub or speaker. As long as the sub can play the support frequency and spl it won't matter. If you have 4 subs for example ART will use the combination of those for cancellation. I would think 4 subs in corners would work just fine if you had a system with more traditional bookshelf speakers. I believe that ART needing full range speakers is getting a bit overstated IMO. I need to take the time to do a test for fun and use ART with just 4 subs in 4 corners with no other support speakers and see how it does. And having a system without subs and getting floor standing speakers with high output down to 20hz or lower... there just aren't that many out there that do that. But the good thing about ART is you can choose to do that but I don't believe the advantages are there to go without subs.

 

[Dj7675]

I think that I've asked this before, but as an exercise I wonder what people think would be the characteristics of an ideal support speaker. Rythmik FM8 looks good because it can play clean at higher frequencies and also dig deep. 4 x L12 would be more affordable. If you were tasked with building an ART system from scratch, what would be your strategy for the support speakers and why? I'd be interested in what people think about a 2 sub, 4 sub, or even a larger system with surrounds that play deep. What would work well and is also a good value?

I would say the ideal speaker for ART would be something that can play loud/clean down to 40-60hz. Then if you have a multichannel system such as 7.1 then have those used as support speakers from something like 50-150hz. Then have 2-4 subs supporting 20hz-150hz. This is what I am doing and it works very well for me 9 speakers (50-150hz support)on the base layer and 4 subs (2 from 20hz-150hz, and 2 from 30hz-150hz).

 

[pogo]

Co-optimization is not just limited to the sub range. And more distributed potent sources are an advantage.

 

[TimoJ]

I would think 4 subs in corners would work just fine if you had a system with more traditional bookshelf speakers.

LFE channel may become an issue. It goes only to subwoofer1 and others subs support it. So, depending how well sub1 goes to 150Hz, other subs or speakers's may not need to support it that high. And that can cause localisation issues.

 

[Dj7675]

LFE channel may become an issue. It goes only to subwoofer1 and others subs support it. So, depending how well sub1 goes to 150Hz, other subs or speakers's may not need to support it that high. And that can cause localisation issues.

Certainly possible. Would need to do more testing of different scenarios. I'm using my front wides, surrounds, and backs to support lfe down to 50hz. So I haven't tried it in that scenario.

 

[TimoJ]

Certainly possible. Would need to do more testing of different scenarios. I'm using my front wides, surrounds, and backs to support lfe down to 50hz. So I haven't tried it in that scenario.

Are you using your AVP's LFE filtering or subwoofer's built-in lowpass filter?

 

[Dj7675]

Are you using your AVP's LFE filtering or subwoofer's built-in lowpass filter?

Subs split into 2 groups
group1-in front coners
2 tv1512 (15 inch ported, 1 is marked as left
group 2-in back corners
dual 12 inch sealed configured as support speakers and lfe. Support limited to 25hz or 30hz (can't recall). I believe I also reduce their support level to -12dB from the default -18dB

 

[Frank207be]

LFE channel may become an issue. It goes only to subwoofer1 and others subs support it. So, depending how well sub1 goes to 150Hz, other subs or speakers's may not need to support it that high. And that can cause localisation issues.

So with ART and LFE, subwoofer 1 will do all the hard work and 2, 3 and 4 will only do support?

With DLBC and LFE the level meters on my Crown amps only differ slightly.

 

[TimoJ]

So with ART and LFE, subwoofer 1 will do all the hard work and 2, 3 and 4 will only do support?

That appears to be the case, at least for now. But other subs' level depends on frequency response (in your room) of subwoofer1. So other subs may support it very much on some frequencies and not at all somewhere else. But there are lots of variables and also settings you can adjust/tweak that can effect this.
This only happens with LFE channel. With bass managed signals, routed from other channels, all subs have the same bass signal and ART cancellation is mixed on top of that.

 

[dlaloum]

I think that I've asked this before, but as an exercise I wonder what people think would be the characteristics of an ideal support speaker. Rythmik FM8 looks good because it can play clean at higher frequencies and also dig deep. 4 x L12 would be more affordable. If you were tasked with building an ART system from scratch, what would be your strategy for the support speakers and why? I'd be interested in what people think about a 2 sub, 4 sub, or even a larger system with surrounds that play deep. What would work well and is also a good value?

I think that ART will enable surround using speakers with deep extension (24Hz?) but which may be SPL limited at the bottom end

So the format of the surround speakers could potentially be something more like a column, using smaller woofers ...

Also current speaker measurements (primarily frequency response at 95db...) aren't going to help in identifying an ideal ART speaker.... we are going to need to know how the speaker behaves at different SPL's - and look for exemplary behaviour in the 65 to 85db SPL range... which is quite different to what we tend to look for in our mains.

 

[dlaloum]

That appears to be the case, at least for now. But other subs' level depends on frequency response (in your room) of subwoofer1. So other subs may support it very much on some frequencies and not at all somewhere else. But there are lots of variables and also settings you can adjust/tweak that can effect this.
This only happens with LFE channel. With bass managed signals, routed from other channels, all subs have the same bass signal and ART cancellation is mixed on top of that.

Can it be configured without an LFE? - so the mixers then distribute LFE to the channels, and then all the channels bass is managed and routed to subs which then includes the LFE...

 

[Frank207be]

That appears to be the case, at least for now. But other subs' level depends on frequency response (in your room) of subwoofer1. So other subs may support it very much on some frequencies and not at all somewhere else. But there are lots of variables and also settings you can adjust/tweak that can effect this.
This only happens with LFE channel. With bass managed signals, routed from other channels, all subs have the same bass signal and ART cancellation is mixed on top of that.

My 4 sealed subs are equally capable. They all do 100dB @10Hz and 110dB @ 20Hz within the x-max range so I expect them to get the same signal with ART cancellation on top? My further goal is to make 5 of the 7 ground level speakers full range.

I like DLBC very much but the long decay gets disturbing at times so I'm very curious what settings ART will bring.

 

[tobby]

So this would mean: Only one subwoofer is producing the "real" sound and doing the hard work, while all the others are just producing the anti-sound? Wouldn't this be a massive downgrade compared to DLBC, where all subwoofers are producing the sound?

 

[EWL5]

So this would mean: Only one subwoofer is producing the "real" sound and doing the hard work, while all the others are just producing the anti-sound? Wouldn't this be a massive downgrade compared to DLBC, where all subwoofers are producing the sound?

ART may be SOTA but it's sounding more like a tech for "money no object" folks. I prefer "practical" so I'm out!

 

[Dj7675]

ART may be SOTA but it's sounding more like a tech for "money no object" folks. I prefer "practical" so I'm out!

While it is only on Stormaudio right now it seems like other brands will be getting added this year… If ART is added to Denon/Marantz on models like the 3800 or Onky/Pioneer/Integra adds it to their models it will become an option for a lot of people. It will be interesting to see what platforms it is running on by the end of the year.

 

[holdingpants01]

Does anyone know if ART works with plain stereo inputs (not streaming, HDMI etc.)? I'm thinking about 3800 for example but used only as a pass through to stereo speakers with signal from the interface and few others speakers in the room working their magic, would it be possible?