Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

[peng]

Yeah, I understand what he said there to mean they are adding Bass Management for non-DLBC integrations. All this means is it sets the AVR-level bass management systems: full-range or limited and XO, as mentioned in the video. If you have DLBC, those settings are disabled entirely, you cannot run full range with DLBC and you set the XO per speaker group within Dirac Live itself. So just to clarify 100%: Phil's statements do not apply to DLBC.

Right! Again, I did make that point clear, after editing, to include the word "without", that was missed in error, and got quoted before I realized the word got missed. It should be clear now.

 

[dlaloum]

Using the Crutchfield site comparison tool and the Onkyo RZ70 as a proxy for the Pioneer 805 (since Crutchfield doesn't seem to carry Pioneer Elite AVRs):

Home Theater Receivers Comparison

Crutchfield's experts have been helping people buy, use and enjoy A/V gear since 1974. Free shipping and lifetime tech support.

www.crutchfield.com

Some highlights why the Denon 4800 is not in the same class:

• 9.4 channels amplification (both 805 and 6800 are 11.4 channels)
• 11.4 channel processing (additional 2 channels need external amplification)
• 125 W (8 Ω, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 2 channel driven) - (805 is 150W/channel, RZ70 is 140W/channel, and the 6800 is 140W/channel)
• 4800 uses the lowly PCM5102A DAC (same as 3800) while the 6800 uses ESS ES9015, RZ70 uses ESS ES9206 and the 805 uses ESS ES9026PRO.

The RZ70/805/6800 are all for folks chasing SINAD as they have the audiophile chips (the 4800 doesn't). If you saw how similarly the 3800 and the 4800 measured and were spec'd (while losing nothing in Dirac functionality), then you probably would make the same decision as me and go for the cheaper 3800!

You'll need to ignore the MSRP as a way to compare because in the same class (generally speaking), a Denon product is more expensive than Onkyo/Pioneer. The fact that the lower RZ50/505 can't do Dirac Bass Management but the 3800 can (same class) is just one thing agreeing w/this point (don't get me started on the "stealth protection" under 4 ohm load!).

Denon's Massimo shareholders, basically insisted on higher margins... hence price increased about 25% across the board.

Not an increase in value (except to shareholders).... Typically Onkyo/Denon were previously side by side competitors at MSRP - now the Onkyo family provide better value at MSRP - but we are also seeing the marketplace determining what street price should be... and that additional % of margin, quickly disappears in discounting, which brings prices back to something more reasonable.

 

[EWL5]

I was referring to bass management when using Dirac. If Audyssey is used, you can of course set speakers to small and crossovers. When using Dirac, without (edit: missed the key word qithout) the bass control licence, you could not do that at launch time, but in a recent video, Phil Jones confirmed that it could be done now, presumably via FW update, but I am not sure if it has been done already, or in tbe next Update.

He mentioned the same in a more recent video, if I have a spare minute I will post a link.

The important point is, if I understood P J right, you can now set small/XO, without the bass control, whereas before, you could not. I am still not sure if Onkyo/Pioneer has such option (again, I mean without BC). My guess is, they do have it, but should be able to include it via FW update too if they choose to.

I can confirm that Dirac Bass Management is available on the Denon line of products but not on the RZ50/505.

My picture in post #618 clearly shows "Bass Management", which wasn't there the first time I ran DL but became available via an update (I never paid for DLBC license).

 

[EWL5]

Denon's Massimo shareholders, basically insisted on higher margins... hence price increased about 25% across the board.

Not an increase in value (except to shareholders).... Typically Onkyo/Denon were previously side by side competitors at MSRP - now the Onkyo family provide better value at MSRP - but we are also seeing the marketplace determining what street price should be... and that additional % of margin, quickly disappears in discounting, which brings prices back to something more reasonable.

I thought it was well known that these days, you pay a premium for the Denon line of products (made even more painful after the AKM factory fire) so I was completely confused by the 4800 comparison to the higher end AVRs. Any street price over $2k is too much IMHO. You have to really like "Made in Japan" LOL!

 

[peng]

I can confirm that Dirac Bass Management is available on the Denon line of products but not on the RZ50/505.

My picture in post #618 clearly shows "Bass Management", which wasn't there the first time I ran DL but became available via an update (I never paid for DLBC license).

Thank you for confirming that, I was serious considering buying the Pioneer LX305 but if, like the RZ50 and LX505, it cannot do small and set XO then I probably should wait.
I am still tempted because of the low street price of about US$900.

@dlaloum , I seem to remember you have a Pioneer, not sure if it's the 505, is the LX305 a good deal for CAD1,217 (Amazon), that is about USD900?

https://www.amazon.ca/PIONEER-Elite-VSXLX305-Surround-Receiver/dp/B095PX2XV7/ref=sr_1_2?crid=NV9UWUXLGFB7&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.MqA_vRRxJrwmBDvbBrociLRNP6TZjwvtdBwd1v5QQ4QNcsxw9WVjnBxU_VQYyyaYtIpQKfw5gOcckJWhyUKV2twWSo4Ahsq9H-Ki-GOzkTpxV_dz93VN7H6FF3YPNshR.vGGhQZT-Z9FmcPtllRRkDyAigth1Pnf4KSpiW5sxxaU&dib_tag=se&keywords=pioneer+lx305&qid=1710800112&sprefix=pioneer+lx305%2Caps%2C86&sr=8-2

Or the Onkyo NR7100, for CAD 1,235, that's just a little more than USD 900.

TX-NR7100 9.2-Channel THX Certified AV Receiver

The first in the series to offer both 9 channels and built-in, ready-to-use DIRAC Live® Room Correction, the Onkyo TX-NR7100 9.2 Channel THX® Certified AV Receiver brings new meaning to the phrase, “home movie night.” The DIRAC Live® Room Correction offers improved musical staging, clarity...

www.onkyo.ca

Why is the Onkyo 7100 so much cheaper than the RZ50?

 

[dlaloum]

@dlaloum , I seem to remember you have a Pioneer, not sure if it's the 505, is the LX305 a good deal for CAD1,217 (Amazon), that is about USD900?

No I have the other sibling, the Integra DRX 3.4 (same as the Onkyo NR7100 or Pio LX305, but with a full set of pre-outs).

Heavily discounted pre-release price, almost 2 years ago now, was AU$1700 they now retail at AU$2300 - we Australians get whacked a substantial impost over US$ prices! (not even talking about exchange rates here) - AU$1700 = US$1100 (roughly).
The Pio's and Onkyo's seem to get a lot more discounting than the Integras... NR7100 is advertised locally at AU$1800, LX305 at AU$2000

The RZ50 goes for AU$2300

(all the above from quick price browsing online - negotiation will often achieve further discounts)

US$900 seems a good deal to me... but that would depend on local prices and discounting - what is happening in Australia, is probably not a good measure of what is going in in the USA or Canada!

 

[peng]

No I have the other sibling, the Integra DRX 3.4 (same as the Onkyo NR7100 or Pio LX305, but with a full set of pre-outs).

Heavily discounted pre-release price, almost 2 years ago now, was AU$1700 they now retail at AU$2300 - we Australians get whacked a substantial impost over US$ prices! (not even talking about exchange rates here) - AU$1700 = US$1100 (roughly).
The Pio's and Onkyo's seem to get a lot more discounting than the Integras... NR7100 is advertised locally at AU$1800, LX305 at AU$2000

The RZ50 goes for AU$2300

(all the above from quick price browsing online - negotiation will often achieve further discounts)

US$900 seems a good deal to me... but that would depend on local prices and discounting - what is happening in Australia, is probably not a good measure of what is going in in the USA or Canada!

Thanks, I thought they have at least 2.1 preout. If only sub pre outs then I 'll pass.

 

[dlaloum]

Thanks, I thought they have at least 2.1 preout. If only sub pre outs then I 'll pass.

There is apparently some sort of difference between the European/Asian and North American models, with the EU/Asia models having L/R pre out... (not present on NA models)...

In any case, that was a key reason why I went for the Integra... although at current prices, I would probably have taken an RZ50

 

[BJL]

There is apparently some sort of difference between the European/Asian and North American models, with the EU/Asia models having L/R pre out... (not present on NA models)...

In any case, that was a key reason why I went for the Integra... although at current prices, I would probably have taken an RZ50

I must have lost track of the subject matter, but if this refers to the LX505, this is an error, the LX505 has pre-outs for 7.1.4 channels. If the subject matter somehow changed along the way, please ignore!

 

[dlaloum]

I must have lost track of the subject matter, but if this refers to the LX505, this is an error, the LX505 has pre-outs for 7.1.4 channels. If the subject matter somehow changed along the way, please ignore!

There were some questions about whether the LX305 (or its Onkyo/Integra brethren) had pre-outs.... the LX505 definitely does!

 

[ban25]

Thank you for confirming that, I was serious considering buying the Pioneer LX305 but if, like the RZ50 and LX505, it cannot do small and set XO then I probably should wait.
I am still tempted because of the low street price of about US$900.

Endless confusion here. Of course you can set speakers to small or large and set XO, but without Dirac Live Bass Management, you can't do it from *within* the Dirac Live software but must instead set it on the AVR. Conversely, when Dirac Live Bass Control is enabled, XO must be set on the DLBC curve per speaker group (after which you must click 'Calculate' and then Upload Filters) and the AVR-level full-band/limited and XO controls are locked out.

 

[EWL5]

Thank you for confirming that, I was serious considering buying the Pioneer LX305 but if, like the RZ50 and LX505, it cannot do small and set XO then I probably should wait.
I am still tempted because of the low street price of about US$900.

@dlaloum , I seem to remember you have a Pioneer, not sure if it's the 505, is the LX305 a good deal for CAD1,217 (Amazon), that is about USD900?

https://www.amazon.ca/PIONEER-Elite-VSXLX305-Surround-Receiver/dp/B095PX2XV7/ref=sr_1_2?crid=NV9UWUXLGFB7&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.MqA_vRRxJrwmBDvbBrociLRNP6TZjwvtdBwd1v5QQ4QNcsxw9WVjnBxU_VQYyyaYtIpQKfw5gOcckJWhyUKV2twWSo4Ahsq9H-Ki-GOzkTpxV_dz93VN7H6FF3YPNshR.vGGhQZT-Z9FmcPtllRRkDyAigth1Pnf4KSpiW5sxxaU&dib_tag=se&keywords=pioneer+lx305&qid=1710800112&sprefix=pioneer+lx305%2Caps%2C86&sr=8-2

Or the Onkyo NR7100, for CAD 1,235, that's just a little more than USD 900.

TX-NR7100 9.2-Channel THX Certified AV Receiver

The first in the series to offer both 9 channels and built-in, ready-to-use DIRAC Live® Room Correction, the Onkyo TX-NR7100 9.2 Channel THX® Certified AV Receiver brings new meaning to the phrase, “home movie night.” The DIRAC Live® Room Correction offers improved musical staging, clarity...

www.onkyo.ca

Why is the Onkyo 7100 so much cheaper than the RZ50?

Building on @ban25's reply, if I was serious about using Dirac, I wouldn't consider an Onkyo/Pioneer product until at least the RZ70/805!

 

[peng]

Endless confusion here. Of course you can set speakers to small or large and set XO, but without Dirac Live Bass Management,

Right, but I would say we can reasonably assume that experienced AVR users (whether they previously used Sony, D+M, Yamaha, Onkyo etc.) would know that they can set small, large, full range, limited range, or similar terms on their AVR, so I don't see any confusion. It is a good thing you emphasized this though, as new AVR users could possible be confused.

you can't do it from *within* the Dirac Live software but must instead set it on the AVR.

On this, I would have to disagree. If you listen to the video I posted the link earlier, in which P.J. clearly mentioned that with the added feature, DL, using just the "regular" license can set crossover for you. Also, @EWL5 has already confirmed the very point I have been making. See post#632.

Conversely, when Dirac Live Bass Control is enabled, XO must be set on the DLBC curve per speaker group

Yes, we both know that is the case if you have the Bass Control license. Once again, I have been talking about using DL without the BC license, but just the regular license (as PJ call it) and with the recently added feature as confirmed by EWL5, it can be done.

 

[MbphotoX]

Right, but I would say we can reasonably assume that experienced AVR users (whether they previously used Sony, D+M, Yamaha, Onkyo etc.) would know that they can set small, large, full range, limited range, or similar terms on their AVR, so I don't see any confusion. It is a good thing you emphasized this though, as new AVR users could possible be confused.

On this, I would have to disagree. If you listen to the video I posted the link earlier, in which P.J. clearly mentioned that with the added feature, DL, using just the "regular" license can set crossover for you. Also, @EWL5 has already confirmed the very point I have been making. See post#632.

Yes, we both know that is the case if you have the Bass Control license. Once again, I have been talking about using DL without the BC license, but just the regular license (as PJ call it) and with the recently added feature as confirmed by EWL5, it can be done.

You guys lost me there.

What exactly does the "bass management" WITHOUT DLBC actually do/add?!
It removes the "small + crossover" in the AVR setup menu and puts it into the Dirac Live menu? And there's literally no benefit at all, because it's the same filter being applied at the crossover frequency?!

I have full bandwith Dirac Live on my LX505 and can adjust the frequency response down to 20 Hz for all channels separately.


Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is the benefit?
Using proper speakers, you can easily set the LPF to 80Hz (LPF = crossover for small speakers) and be done. There's usually no need to play around with that, at all.. so just set it and forget it.

 

[peng]

Building on @ban25's reply, if I was serious about using Dirac, I wouldn't consider an Onkyo/Pioneer product until at least the RZ70/805!

Which reply, about what? Obviously if you need features, or power output that the lower models don't offer, then the RZ270 might be the way to go if they have what you need.

I was considering those lower models because I just want one for one of my 2 channel system. I almost bought the Motu M4, but then someone reminded me of an issue, that bring me back to the AVR solution again. It is really frustrating that there still aren't any <$1,200 devices for me to use for 2 channel with sub(s), and use DL, or DLBC, even if I can only use my PC standalone DLBC license. I guess the next box day Denon sale could make it happen for me.

 

[peng]

You guys lost me there.

What exactly does the "bass management" WITHOUT DLBC actually do/add?!
It removes the "small + crossover" in the AVR setup menu and puts it into the Dirac Live menu? And there's literally no benefit at all, because it's the same filter being applied at the crossover frequency?!

I have full bandwith Dirac Live on my LX505 and can adjust the frequency response down to 20 Hz for all channels separately.

As mentioned, with BC, you can set crossovers using the AVR's speaker setup manual, but before the recent change, you cannot do it in Dirac Live if you did not buy the BC license. The benefit for doing it directly in BC is that a) the crossover set by DL (regular license) may be more accurate, b) assuming it can be change like BC could, then you can drag it and would be able to set it to numbers other than the fixed 10 Hz intervals, i.e. such as setting it the 75 Hz, and c) more convenient for tweakers, who want to try different crossovers, without going back to the AVR's speaker menu every time a change is made.

The main benefit of the BC license is about phase optimization between speaker groups and subwoofer groups, that the regular/basic DL version does not do.

@EWL5 , could you please tell us about b), that is, without the BC license, can you change the XO point by dragging with the mouse, say from the XO set by DL from such as 70 to 75 Hz?

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is the benefit?

Using proper speakers, you can easily set the LPF to 80Hz (LPF = crossover for small speakers) and be done. There's usually no need to play around with that, at all.. so just set it and forget it.

In your case, since you would just set it and forget it, then the added feature to set XO by DL is probably no benefits to you, except what I listed as benefit a) above, but that is a "maybe" only, I would say it is not likely that if DL set XO instead of you doing it manually would be better, it could actually be worse. For me though, I prefer to have the option.

 

[EWL5]

As mentioned, with BC, you can set crossovers using the AVR's speaker setup manual, but before the recent change, you cannot do it in Dirac Live if you did not buy the BC license. The benefit for doing it directly in BC is that a) the crossover set by DL (regular license) may be more accurate, b) assuming it can be change like BC could, then you can drag it and would be able to set it to numbers other than the fixed 10 Hz intervals, i.e. such as setting it the 75 Hz, and c) more convenient for tweakers, who want to try different crossovers, without going back to the AVR's speaker menu every time a change is made.

The main benefit of the BC license is about phase optimization between speaker groups and subwoofer groups, that the regular/basic DL version does not do.

@EWL5 , could you please tell us about b), that is, without the BC license, can you change the XO point by dragging with the mouse, say from the XO set by DL from such as 70 to 75 Hz?

In your case, since you would just set it and forget it, then the added feature to set XO by DL is probably no benefits to you, except what I listed as benefit a) above, but that is a "maybe" only, I would say it is not likely that if DL set XO instead of you doing it manually would be better, it could actually be worse. For me though, I prefer to have the option.

Yes, XO can be adjusted in DLBM (I didn't pay for DLBC) but remember that I have a Denon 3800 and not a Pioneer or Onkyo (this is a 505 thread).

Within the context of this thread, I'm just making it clear that if you wanted to make changes fully within Dirac only, you can only do that starting w/RZ70 or 805 since the RZ50 and 505 neither support DLBM nor DLBC.

 

[peng]

Yes, XO can be adjusted in DLBM but remember that I have a Denon 3800 and not a Pioneer or Onkyo (this is a 505 thread).

I'm just making it clear that if you wanted to make changes fully within Dirac only, you can only do that starting w/RZ70 or 805 since the RZ50 and 505 neither support DLBM nor DLBC.

Thanks again, and yes I realize OP and D(Integra) may not, in fact likely not have this brand newly added DLBM by D+M/Masimo (you coined this BM thing haha, someone might confused it with BC now though if they don't read carefully) feature. Now that you have confirmed everything for me, I am just going to wait for the 3800 to go on a huge sale when the 3900 launces, that shouldn't be too long, I guess.

If and when I do that, I may be one of extremely few people who uses a 11 prepro with 4 discrete subouts for one of my 2.1 stereo setup. Call me crazy but to me that might be the best way to do what I want it (the stereo setup) to do, as no AVR/AVP manufacturers offer such animals in 2.X versions. Others like minidsp, NAD, Arcam likely have something in their streamers, integrated etc., but those aren't going to be in the $1,200 or even $2,000 price range.

 

[peng]

I just realized I somehow missed EWL5's post#618 two pages back now, in which he actually included a nice and clear screenshot that I think is worth reposting here:
Maybe if he has some spare time, he would post a new one that shows the crossover setpoint.

Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

Ok. Looks like that power usage changes are related to the volume/power needed. I've increased volume to -15dB and power usage spiked back to the previous levels. Around 80W. Lower volume - lower power usage. Higher volume - higher power usage. I guess amp does not need full power and it is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[EWL5]

I just realized I somehow missed EWL5's post#618 two pages back now, in which he actually included a nice and clear screenshot that I think is worth reposting here:
Maybe if he has some spare time, he would post a new one that shows the crossover setpoint.

Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review

Ok. Looks like that power usage changes are related to the volume/power needed. I've increased volume to -15dB and power usage spiked back to the previous levels. Around 80W. Lower volume - lower power usage. Higher volume - higher power usage. I guess amp does not need full power and it is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'll do that when I get home. I had set the XO quite high as the L/C/R come from a Martin Logan SLM X3 mounted underneath an LG OLED and the surrounds are all in-ceiling speakers! I don't think you could get a cleaner look outside of an in-wall SW, LOL!