Stereophile and Audio Cables

[MattHooper]

LOL seems you are. I meant some of the group, maybe I should have been more specific about "we", it wasn't a Royal we....

Ha, I was being cheeky. No I'm not defending the cable review. I view the high end cable scene as a racket. My only positive comments had to do with JA at least responding with an attempt to present what he takes to be plausible technical reasons cables could sound different. Which I much prefer to the standard ad hominem from golden eared cable fans "if you don't hear the difference your ears suck or your gear isn't good enough." At least then the technical claims can be addressed.

I certainly think any mag has the right to do cable reviews, but I tend not to read them because I notice it makes my blood start to boil. And if stereophile decides to review cables I'd like to see them measure, just like everyone else here, to hold the manufacturer's feat to the fire. They at least do that for other gear. I've just assumed that since they review cables so seldom, it's just not a category high on their reviewing radar so not as much effort is put towards that category. That's why I was so surprised to see this recent review pop up.

 

[Chrispy]

Ha, I was being cheeky. No I'm not defending the cable review. I view the high end cable scene as a racket. My only positive comments had to do with JA at least responding with an attempt to present what he takes to be plausible technical reasons cables could sound different. Which I much prefer to the standard ad hominem from golden eared cable fans "if you don't hear the difference your ears suck or your gear isn't good enough." At least then the technical claims can be addressed.

I certainly think any mag has the right to do cable reviews, but I tend not to read them because I notice it makes my blood start to boil. And if stereophile decides to review cables I'd like to see them measure, just like everyone else here, to hold the manufacturer's feat to the fire. They at least do that for other gear. I've just assumed that since they review cables so seldom, it's just not a category high on their reviewing radar so not as much effort is put towards that category. That's why I was so surprised to see this recent review pop up.

It's not just reviewing cables but even the inclusion in a list of hardware in a review of whatever as if it is component level stuff. A mag can surely do cable reviews, and so far that's been useless in any real sense unless you just like to read rather poor fiction.

 

[VintageFlanker]

A real bunch of nonsense in the "Recommended Components 2024"...

Sure it is not new, but still quite a shame for this magazine to promote such snake oil, especially when they know perfectly it is...

Recommended Components 2024 Edition Powerline Accessories

Powerline Accessories: AC Nexus Advanced Power Distribution & Ground Enhancement System: $20,000

www.stereophile.com

Recommended Components 2024 Edition Interconnects, Speaker Cables, Digital datalinks

Interconnects: Analysis Plus Silver Apex Interconnects: $1219.99 (1m pair) The Analysis Plus Silver Apex uses as its conductor an oxygen-free copper "stabilizing strand" covered with pure silver, in an arrangement the manufacturer describes, somewhat elliptically (haw) as "a hollow oval cable...

www.stereophile.com

Recommended Components 2024 Edition Miscellaneous Accessories

Miscellaneous Accessories: Audio Research Tube Damping Rings: $5 each Damping rings for all AR products are now available to the public at large. They're made of a proprietary polymer material that converts kinetic energy to heat, and their improvements are not subtle, exclaims BJR: tighter...

www.stereophile.com

 

[Blumlein 88]

I remember, as I was a subscriber for a long, long time, that JA started his measurements hoping over time it would correlate, illuminate or uncover why some things sounded good or what things prevented something from sounding good. A few different times he said his archive of measurements has failed at any of that. Now knowing how listening bias and the foibles of sighted listening comparisons work, just such a chaotic random result vs measured results is precisely what one would expect. Not too nice for someone who has done these measurements for most of their life. And one price of ignoring the basics of listening issues already known when he started. JGH figured it out.

So I also wonder once Stereophile was sold moving HQ from New Mexico to NYC if JA has the option to hold forth otherwise. Or if he wants to do so. His measurements are still very worthwhile, but mainly to show that in fact, as expected, the emperor has no clothes (or the listener has no ears). So if the mag were to re-orient itself (not happening while a big company will keep profits coming in) what would it do? JGH realized that once you ignore accuracy or high fidelity as was his original want, you drop right into what sounds good (or preference). There is no arguing preference. Trying to hit preference is worse than hitting a wildly moving target. With the ideal of creating as accurately as possible live music in your listening room there is a solid reference. Otherwise would they embark on an investigation into what types of infidelity are preferred? You'd end up unable to ascertain that as it will be different for every single person. The dishonesty is not admitting that most often people hear what isn't in the sound waves for other reasons along with admitting other than transducers everything is more accurate than humans (excepting purposely incompetent broken design). So you get gear with no real difference in sound, and maybe some gear that really sounds different, but that will always be because it is of inferior fidelity. Maybe I should start a mag, High Infidelity. Although as bad as some electronics are it is actually pretty hard beyond frequency response issues to make something audibly different.

Obviously, whether realized by JA or not, Stereophile painted itself into a corner. As a business, and philosophy they have no choice other than to kick the can down the road as long as it pays the bills. The owner is obligated to make money for shareholders. I don't think if they became some version of rational audio they would make more money.

Would they only listen to transducers and merely test electronics to confirm acceptable performance? Listening methods would need to change and individual people listening in their home wouldn't cut it. At one time they did gather for group listening of speakers now and again. Those were pretty interesting.

 

[Talisman]

@MattHooper Hi Matt, generally I find your positions halfway between objectivism and subjectivism very sensible and agreeable, but allow me this time not to believe in the total good faith of some.

an astute potential customer asked me: "If I buy your very expensive system, what will I get that I'm not getting with my less expensive system?" Smiling my best fatherly smile, I whispered to his ear, "Goosebumps, tears, and laughter."

"goosebumps, tears and laughter"
This according to the reviewer would be missing out on someone who cannot purchase these very expensive cables. A subtle manipulative method that leverages the thought that every audiophile has had at least once in their life "but if I was really missing out on something that only that 10,000 euro DAC or those 1000 euro/meter cables can give... That magic , that emotion..."
This is the concept behind snake oil

Typically, the sonic effects of cable changes are modest shifts in focus, tone, or transparency. But sometimes during blue moons I've seen a new set of cables turn a blah, dull, fuzzy system into a macrodynamic, microdetailed one. Or turn a cool, mechanical-sounding system into something fierce and mammalian.

Here the reviewer lets us know the amazing feats possible just by changing cables, and making readers' mouths water by making them think about how their system can radically change allowing the famous laughter and tears.....

I would never blame an audiophile for thinking that specialty audio cables sound mostly the same and that buying expensive wires would be foolish. That view is justifiable because it reflects most audiophiles' experience. I felt that way myself until one day in the 1980s I went off-piste and experienced my first silver-wire cables from Kimber Kable.

Here the reviewer puts his hand forward by parrying the blow from the skeptics and saying that deep down he understands why it SEEMS to them that the cables basically all sound the same at least until he tried......
This is also a manipulative technique, he pretends to understand the skeptical point of view but only to say that he would be skeptical too if he hadn't tried THAT PARTICULAR EXPENSIVE CABLE

A few years later, I switched to hair-thin, hand-drawn Italian silver wire from Audio Note Japan (now Kondo). Those wires, which were made entirely in-house, took data retrieval to an extreme level that forced me to coin a new descriptor—"LSD-spiderweb"—which referred to the surfeit of detail I experienced. Changing from almost-free copper to Kimber and Kondo silver was like switching from aspirin to windowpane acid provided by Owsley Stanley III. I tried those top-shelf silver cables with middle- and bottom-shelf components and discovered that their effect was pretty negligible with the bottom-row stuff but sometimes dramatically effective at upping the excitement factor of midlevel components. As a result, I have no qualms about using $4000 interconnects with a $2000 integrated amplifie

Here we have the final blow. First with a sleight of hand he makes us understand that these cables are so incredibly detailed that a new term has to be coined to describe the incredible number of details recovered. In spite of the hundreds of meters of copper cables through which that signal passed before and which should have destroyed all those details (according to our reviewer's prose)
Then THE PEARL
He tried them in low and medium level systems (i.e. not stupidly expensive) but there the result was almost not noticeable... Look at that, so if you buy those cables and you don't hear any differences the problem is that you don't you have other stupidly expensive fancy audiophile elements, the most classic "your system doesn't resolve enough" but posted to the next level
And finally the logical and obvious conclusion, those $4000 cables definitely make enough of a difference to justify their cost.


The curtain falls, the light goes out, the audience applauds in raptures with goosebumps, tears and laughter.....

 

[Axo1989]

I found it interesting that Stereophile recently published a short review of some audio cables - written by Herb Reichert.

Gramophone Dreams #82: IKIGAI Kangai-level cables, dCS Lina headphone amplifier

Decades ago, when I was peddling million-dollar sound systems, an astute potential customer asked me: "If I buy your very expensive system, what will I get that I'm not getting with my less expensive system?" Smiling my best fatherly smile, I whispered to his ear, "Goosebumps, tears, and...

www.stereophile.com

Cable reviews at one point became very rare at Stereophile and I've long wondered why. First of all cables were never accompanied by measurements as there were for DACs, Amps, Phono Stages, Speakers. When I put that together with the general lack of cable reviews in the magazine, my suspicion was that John Atkinson generally didn't think that measuring cables was worthwhile, and that cable reviews weren't really something they wanted to concentrate on.

So it was interesting to see a cable review pop up, and also see the response in the comment section. Archimago brought his skeptical take, but also JA gave a detailed reply suggesting that there were a number of at least technically plausible ways cables could sound different.

I'm just not knowledgeable enough to vet all the claims, and I consider myself a cable skeptic (unless more evidence arises justifying some of the high end audio claims).
But I did appreciate a reply from JA that doesn't mirror the classic subjectivist/golden ear response of "if you can't hear it, you are deaf or you need a more resolving system."
Right or wrong in the claims, JA had the right approach to the challenging Archimago's post, IMO.

My point is not to simply dangling this cable review as read meat for ASR (though of course the claims will be critiqued). Part of this post is meant as some appreciation for JA, and also just musing on the magazine's relationship to reviewing cables (and why). I still enjoy Stereophile, I enjoy Herb's reviews (speakers mostly), and I have huge respect for JA (and I think he's a valuable member here too) even if I don't agree fully with him on everything.

I read Stereophile online when interesting things are discussed. It follows logically that I don't think I've ever attempted to read a cable/interconnect review. But do they actually do those currently? Or was that before my time? You've linked to the column "Gramophone Dreams". Usually, product descriptions, occasionally, some listening impressions.

 

[Sal1950]

Jeeze...are you doing that?

Personally, I think the cable review was ridiculous. Like pretty much every cable review I can think of.

But if you wanna defend it, that's your right...

He's talking to you Matt and your constant defense of Stereophiles over the top support of snake-oil.

I remember, as I was a subscriber for a long, long time, that JA started his measurements hoping over time it would correlate, illuminate or uncover why some things sounded good or what things prevented something from sounding good.

Top shelf post D! Amen.

 

[Axo1989]

"My entire career has been promoting fraud." Yeah, not likely.

All Atkinson has done over the years is demonstrate that he's knowingly doing that rather than doing it from a position of ignorance. But I hand it to him for doing the scam successfully. He's rich and I'm just scraping by on an academic salary, so I'll concede that he's smarter.

Is that a true statement? What is his personal wealth estimated to be?

 

[diddley]

I read the article as a basis for selling ad space for cable manufactures, and nothing more.
It's beyond snake oil, it's much more cynical than that.

 

[SIY]

Is that a true statement? What is his personal wealth estimated to be?

His buyout was reported to be in the seven figures. He deserves it- he vastly increased the value of the magazine.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

^^^ This.
It's absurd. We know it; they know it.. No more to say about it.

I’m not sure *they* know it.

 

[Doodski]

I’m not sure *they* know it.

They must.... sigh* - Everybody that has any knowledge of electronics or has done some AB switching comparisons would know. It's a no brainer that I could teach a child to run the AB test. Then there is the situation where if one has any electrical or electronics education they will be able to figure out what is happening and determine that wires do not sound different unless something is seriously wrong with it/one of them.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Reading this thread reminds that arguing whether or not all cables or all power cords sound the same is a sucker’s debate. They don’t all sound the same! With a little effort or a lot of incompetence one can make either sound different. I never argue that they all sound the same. It’s way too open to debate.

I argue that my basic cables, pro digital gear and stock power cords have zero audible effect on the sound. And that’s easy to demonstrate. And that is where I always steer the debate. I don’t need to hear $50,000.00 cables or power cords. I don’t care if those things actually sound different. A basic multiple generation copy of a high res file using competent ADCs, DACs, basic cables all powered with stock power cords will demonstrate the transparency of everything used in such a chain to make second and third generation copies.

Keep the argument simple and grounded to things that are easy to demonstrate

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

They must.... sigh* - Everybody that has any knowledge of electronics or has done some AB switching comparisons would know. It's a no brainer that I could teach a child to run the AB test. Then there is the situation where if one has any electrical or electronics education they will be able to figure out what is happening and determine that wires do not sound different unless something is seriously wrong with it/one of them.

Non level matched, non time synchronized, non quick switching A/B comparisons are an accidental shell game. THAT right there is THE big problem. It is the master recipe for thinking you heard differences where none existed

 

[Doodski]

Non level matched, non time synchronized, non quick switching A/B comparisons are an accidental shell game. THAT right there is THE big problem. It is the master recipe for thinking you heard differences where existed

We know this. What has this got to do with these experts @ Stereophile and the cable/interconnect/speaker wire fluffy reviews that they release to the general public?

 

[Svet Angelov]

simple and grounded

"Changing from almost-free copper to Kimber and Kondo silver was like switching from aspirin to windowpane acid provided by Owsley Stanley III"

OK I laughed a bit.

 

[teched58]

Can't believe we're defending Stereophile's pandering to the cable idiocy.

What do you call an iconoclastic forum that, as it grows larger, becomes ever more concerned that it might hurt the feelings of those who weren't its target audience in the first place?

 

[Audiofire]

What do you call an iconoclastic forum that, as it grows larger, becomes ever more concerned that it might hurt the feelings of those who weren't its target audience in the first place?

"LSD-spiderweb"

 

[Mart68]

"LSD-spiderweb"

Actually that's a pretty good name for a band.

 

[DLS79]

A real bunch of nonsense in the "Recommended Components 2024"...
View attachment 356980
Sure it is not new, but still quite a shame for this magazine to promote such snake oil, especially when they know perfectly it is...

The real question is how many of those manufacturers advertise in the magazine.