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Stereophile and Audio Cables

SIY

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For anyone interested, I have prepared test files for the ABX test with 2 audio cables that are as dissimilar as they could be.

Mardis's experiment with the potato is still champion.
 

DSJR

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Because Stereophile usually publishes extensive measurements next to reviews. And these will just show that cables are doing absolutely nothing. As you said post #1. ;)

Demonstrating that a product is useless is not exactly the same than showing measurable differences between amps and between speakers.

By the way, Hi-Fi News has a different approach : measurements (by the way quite poor) for just about everything, except for cables... but lot more cable reviews. My personal guess is (purely speculative) that Stereophile readers do have a lot more interest for objective data than Hi-Fi News readers.
When tech reviewer Paul Miller started out, he used to do tests at rf on cables (was it for HiFi Choice, by then in monthly mag form?) and he often found differences (internal reflections or something) at rf frequencies I remember. Digital sources back then didn't seem as 'clean' as I suspect they are today so maybe this could contribute to sonic differences if they were there at all.

Got so say I was a fan of cable ferrites all over and still use them, necessary or not, but it was a cheap indulgence and I don't care now really...

P.S. I almost NEVER read the prose before the tech side in Stereophile reviews (sorry Kal) as they bear little comparison to me and my own situation and tastes.. I'd rather buy a nice piece of real jewellery than a foo cable or little known product costing the same, but others don't feel that way at all - until said cable or product is sold at a huge loss a few years down the line...
 

Talisman

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Mardis's experiment with the potato is still champion.
For me the king of these tests is that site that played audio that passed from a fancy audiophile cable and from a welded piece of iron from an old chair.
Blindly the preference went to the piece of iron.
 

Justdafactsmaam

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I would rather appreciate if JA tried to find a measuring method to show that audio cables change the signal in the audio band. We can definitely identify the grounding issue related to single ended link transfer, but that is not what the audiophiles are talking about.
Ethan Winer has already done that with his null tests
 

JeremyFife

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Couldn't find the measurements ... the subjective review is flowery nonsense ... don't understand why this thread is here

Edit:
On reflection, my original post is a bit blunt. @MattHooper put up a topic for discussion, which is fine. It references John Atkinson, who I respect.
My opinion hasn't changed, but I could have put it better.
Doesn't hurt to have these old arguments shot down again (and again) to reinforce the key message: don't fuss about cables.
 
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pma

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When tech reviewer Paul Miller started out, he used to do tests at rf on cables (was it for HiFi Choice, by then in monthly mag form?) and he often found differences (internal reflections or something) at rf frequencies I remember. Digital sources back then didn't seem as 'clean' as I suspect they are today so maybe this could contribute to sonic differences if they were there at all.
We all can find the differences when measuring reflections or RF immunity, the question is if the transfer to audible differences and as a hypothesis it must be proven, otherwise it is nothing but a hypothesis.

You are right the SOTA DACs have much much cleaner HF of VHF output spectrum compared to stone age CD players. The remaining issue is the signal ground loop in case of single-ended interconnection of 2 class I devices or non-isolated USB loop. Try my test linked above :).
 

DSJR

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So sad the arch subjectivists who 'hear all that we don't' in that thread slag off ASR led by Amir as if we're blind sheep! It's all so effin' tribal :(

Maybe these people should respectfully realise that so many of 'us' here have been through it all, have been totally fooled once or twice (such has clearly hearing an A-B difference when NOTHING AT ALL has changed, not even volume), followed the golden fleece which gets further away the more we spend on the gear quite often and simply no longer believe blindly in these differences.

One poster who really rated his Kondo cables also suggests (perhaps rightly) that people need to understand better how to listen (in my case, trying to do this drastically improved my perception of live music events too, making the reproduced sound even MORE false). Those attacking Amir seem to forget or not realise that his training in 'listening' almost certainly way outweighs their own abilities in this area.

I'm so glad I'm out of this rat run now. Look after your ears folks, 'cos you'll never get it back once acuity is damaged or lost - age or whatever!
 

Jeromeof

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One place where 'cables' still need to be tested IMO is HDMI cables - often with 'cheap' (and even not so cheap HDMI cable) are not of the 19 wires needed for full HDMI 2.0 compatibility are connected.


I bought this last year and ended up throwing out a bunch of older HDMI cables that failed the tests:

 

mhardy6647

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For whatever reason (probably incipient insanity on my part -- but maybe the use of the term flowery prose in a comment above) this discussion got me to thinking about oenophiles.

It is (i.e., it should be) absolutely achievable to develop meaningful (i.e., statistically valid and defendable) correlations between measureable quantities (e.g.,, optical density, spectrophotometry, light scattering, pH, specific gravity, viscosity, and - of course - things like GC headspace analysis for volatile organics, ion chromatography, mass spectrometry, and other analytical techniques for the organic and inorganic constituents) of a bottle of wine and its perceived quality by, shall we say, trained tasters.

Indeed, for all I know (we've been sort of out of the serious wine snob game for a couple of decades now) this has been/is being done.
I know that analytical labs do indeed carry out some fairly sophisticated quantitative analyses of wine.

Wine might even be more interesting than hifi because multiple senses are directly impacted by the experience of pouring, looking at, sniffing and tasting wine. Yeah, yeah, I guess visual and tactile enter into hifi, too, but perhaps less directly than with the whole wine-quaffing experience. Synaesthetics aside, I don't think that most folks taste hifi, e.g. :)

I am guessing that the flowery prose is still winning the day in the wine journals, though(?).
 
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DSJR

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mhardy6647

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ahem.
and then there's tea.
We are pretty serious tea drinkers at my house.
Not really this serious, though. :cool:

Harvested on February 24, 2022, this outstanding first flush Darjeeling is referred to as ‘Jethi Kupi,’ an auspicious title given to the earliest first flush harvests at the Rohini Estate. The bright golden liquor is light and refreshing with a buttery smooth corn silk mouth feel. The fresh aroma is delicate and floral with gentle vegetal hints. The classic floral cup is embraced by tropical fruit and sweet toasty hints. A crisp, lingering finish completes an exemplary tea experience, imbued with sunshine and felicity.

Now -- in full disclosure, the above product description is taken from the website of my own personal favorite purveyor of teas:
They had a broad and deep selection of very high quality teas and tisanes at reasonable prices and provide excellent service (at least in the US).
But their descriptions get a bit... purple*. ;)

PS Felicity is a term that we should see more of in hifi magazine reviews, don't you think? ;)
________________
* In literary criticism, purple prose is overly ornate prose text that may disrupt a narrative flow by drawing undesirable attention to its own extravagant style of writing, thereby diminishing the appreciation of the prose overall. Purple prose is characterized by the excessive use of adjectives, adverbs, and metaphors.
per wiki-p:
 

Talisman

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There's an overwhelming logic that "we can feel it even if we can't measure it" fans seem to totally ignore.
But if the engineers who designed those audio cables had no way of measuring and verifying their results (since the measurements apparently can't detect what the ears of 65-year-old audiophiles can) then how did they create such an amazing cable? Did they make lots of random cables and listen to them to verify the most "musical" by ear? Did they go by trial and error? Did they test them by listening to him play string quartets to see if "emotion, joy and tears" came through?
I ask for a friend
 

Vacceo

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If I don´t believe in gods, I´m not going to beleive in cables. Probably I´d notice no change because I do not believe cables change anything.
 

Justdafactsmaam

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There's an overwhelming logic that "we can feel it even if we can't measure it" fans seem to totally ignore.
But if the engineers who designed those audio cables had no way of measuring and verifying their results (since the measurements apparently can't detect what the ears of 65-year-old audiophiles can) then how did they create such an amazing cable? Did they make lots of random cables and listen to them to verify the most "musical" by ear? Did they go by trial and error? Did they test them by listening to him play string quartets to see if "emotion, joy and tears" came through?
I ask for a friend
No. They purified to copper to 11. Applied quantum technology, treated them cryogenically, did a twelve thousand hour burn in to align the crystalline structure, mathematically time and phase aligned everything cryogenically treated it again with a proprietary quantum cryogenics energy field and set the phasers to stun. Anyone who knows anything about true high end cables understands this and can clearly hear the difference from another room. I’m quite confident there is zero trial and error.
 

Talisman

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No. They purified to copper to 11. Applied quantum technology, treated them cryogenically, did a twelve thousand hour burn in to align the crystalline structure, mathematically time and phase aligned everything cryogenically treated it again with a proprietary quantum cryogenics energy field and set the phasers to stun. Anyone who knows anything about true high end cables understands this and can clearly hear the difference from another room. I’m quite confident there is zero trial and error.
Oh god sorry, I'm a fool, but they sure know how to test audiophile cables.
They put a series of laboratories connected to kitchens with wives. If wives can clearly feel improvement day and night from cooking then they are on the right track!
 

pma

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There's an overwhelming logic that "we can feel it even if we can't measure it" fans seem to totally ignore.
But if the engineers who designed those audio cables had no way of measuring and verifying their results (since the measurements apparently can't detect what the ears of 65-year-old audiophiles can) then how did they create such an amazing cable? Did they make lots of random cables and listen to them to verify the most "musical" by ear? Did they go by trial and error? Did they test them by listening to him play string quartets to see if "emotion, joy and tears" came through?
I ask for a friend
I know several “high-end” cable producers, and at least some of them really believe in what they are doing. They have no scientific or engineering basis for their products. They have created their own pseudo-theories why the cables do sound different, or they just argue by ears.
 

Purité Audio

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I know several “high-end” cable producers, and at least some of them really believe in what they are doing. They have no scientific or engineering basis for their products. They have created their own pseudo-theories why the cables do sound different, or they just argue by ears.
They haven’t thought to actually test whether there is a difference, incompetent, charlatans or both?
Keith
 

DLS79

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Nothing JA wrote has any merit for audio cables. Early radar needs and audio one of your typical misdirections.

Not to mention the busbar reference is wrong!

When you pound on some metals you work harden them, and that increases their electrical resistance it does not lower it.

here is a paper from 1930, that shows when you gently anneal some metals (the opposite of work hardening them) resistances decreases. If you take the annealing to far you can actually increase the resistance.


The rubber hammer bit is hilarious, even Schwarzenegger in his youth would have a hard time work hardening copper with a rubber mallet!
 
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