Dune 2021

[TimF]

I saw the new Dune movie yesterday with my grandson. I saw it as a kind of telling the life story and a mythologyzing of the life of Prince Charles. I'm sure it is all about Prince Charles. Otherwise it is: white privileged family loses its status and goes dragging their sorry ass to the outcast non-white community for help restoring their place. Also, the economy on the particular planet is based on drugs. The movie has one hell of a lot fascist overtones--it is about mega power and mega-power clans. The damn soundtrack--music and noise just about ruined the movie for me. Constant loud music overlayed and booming that is like a constant directors monolog telling the meaning of each scene. I like the acting by Javier Bardem.

 

[pseudoid]

Did woke-ism force Dune2021 to exclude (make substitution for) the word "Mélange"?
Why "Spice", instead?

 

[JaccoW]

Did woke-ism force Dune2021 to exclude (make substitution for) the word "Mélange"?
Why "Spice", instead?

Spice melange (commonly referred to a "Spice") - Dune wiki
It has always been that way.

I watched the movie last month in Imax 3D together with a friend who knew nothing about the francise and he really liked it. Yes I will be very disappointed if a part two doesn't get made but all in all it was a great experience with a good story. I especially liked how believable some of the twists and turns were. Some sci-fi adaptations can make a change of mind of the main character seem forced but here you can see them acting through the emotions that make them change their minds.

 

[Koeitje]

I saw the new Dune movie yesterday with my grandson. I saw it as a kind of telling the life story and a mythologyzing of the life of Prince Charles. I'm sure it is all about Prince Charles. Otherwise it is: white privileged family loses its status and goes dragging their sorry ass to the outcast non-white community for help restoring their place. Also, the economy on the particular planet is based on drugs. The movie has one hell of a lot fascist overtones--it is about mega power and mega-power clans. The damn soundtrack--music and noise just about ruined the movie for me. Constant loud music overlayed and booming that is like a constant directors monolog telling the meaning of each scene. I like the acting by Javier Bardem.

What are you on about?

 

[JaccoW]

I saw the new Dune movie yesterday with my grandson. I saw it as a kind of telling the life story and a mythologyzing of the life of Prince Charles. I'm sure it is all about Prince Charles. Otherwise it is: white privileged family loses its status and goes dragging their sorry ass to the outcast non-white community for help restoring their place. Also, the economy on the particular planet is based on drugs. The movie has one hell of a lot fascist overtones--it is about mega power and mega-power clans. The damn soundtrack--music and noise just about ruined the movie for me. Constant loud music overlayed and booming that is like a constant directors monolog telling the meaning of each scene. I like the acting by Javier Bardem.

It's more of a modern day feudalism with a lot of political intrigue. They don't get sent there to save the place. They get sent to Arrakis to die so the emperor gets rid of a rival.

Dune as a story was written as a warning about charismatic leaders. And if you watch closely there are some hints dropped here and there that this is happening here as well. Paul is using the Fremen for his own goals. And the whole idea of a chosen one coming to Arrakis has been planted by the space witches centuries ago. Part because it was a prophecy and part because that's what they wanted as a means to an end. It won't be him saving the planet in the end.

This guy below does a lot of Dune lore videos and he has two videos about why it is explicitely not a white savior story.

EDIT: “I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: May be dangerous to your health." - Frank Herbert (Writer of Dune)

 

[Koeitje]

It's more of a modern day feudalism with a lot of political intrigue. They don't get sent there to save the place. They get sent to Arrakis to die so the emperor gets rid of a rival.

Dune as a story was written as a warning about charismatic leaders. And if you watch closely there are some hints dropped here and there that this is happening here as well. Paul is using the Fremen for his own goals. And the whole idea of a chosen one coming to Arrakis has been planted by the space witches centuries ago. Part because it was a prophecy and part because that's what they wanted as a means to an end. It won't be him saving the planet in the end.

This guy below does a lot of Dune lore videos and he has two videos about why it is explicitely not a white savior story.

EDIT: “I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: May be dangerous to your health." - Frank Herbert (Writer of Dune)

Spoiler

Paul also realises the effect his position will have on the universe. There will be a jihad in his name.

 

[AdamG]

Be forewarned not going to let this conversation devolve into some type of woke racist power clan white savior stereotyping bullshit.

 

[Ron Texas]

Dune was written in 1965. It's a sci-fi yarn about all sorts of stuff that doesn't exist. Please don't ruin it with politics.

 

[Daverz]

Dune was written in 1965. It's a sci-fi yarn about all sorts of stuff that doesn't exist. Please don't ruin it with politics.

Yeah, there's no politics in Dune.

 

[HorizonsEdge]

visually stunning, otherwise superficial. it could have been so much more.

 

[amper42]

visually stunning, otherwise superficial. it could have been so much more.

I have to agree. I watched Dune on HBO Max last night and it ended in the most unresolved and awkward manner. No resolution at all. Everybody dies but mom and son and the viewer is left to believe they must watch another movie for the revenge/resolution... what a waste of time. It would have made a better TV miniseries than a movie.

 

[Veri]

I have to agree. I watched Dune on HBO Max last night and it ended in the most unresolved and awkward manner. No resolution at all.

Try to use spoiler tags

 

[stevenswall]

Enjoyed it, wouldn't say I loved it, but I would like to re-watch it since it was complex enough to warrant that. I hope the second one is my favorite movie.

 

[charleski]

It's more of a modern day feudalism with a lot of political intrigue. They don't get sent there to save the place. They get sent to Arrakis to die so the emperor gets rid of a rival.

Dune as a story was written as a warning about charismatic leaders. And if you watch closely there are some hints dropped here and there that this is happening here as well. Paul is using the Fremen for his own goals. And the whole idea of a chosen one coming to Arrakis has been planted by the space witches centuries ago. Part because it was a prophecy and part because that's what they wanted as a means to an end. It won't be him saving the planet in the end.

This guy below does a lot of Dune lore videos and he has two videos about why it is explicitely not a white savior story.

EDIT: “I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: May be dangerous to your health." - Frank Herbert (Writer of Dune)

The Dune series is unquestionably some of the greatest SF ever written. But we don't gain anything by trying to gloss over its more questionable elements, and I think one of the real strengths of Villeneuve's film is precisely that he doesn't attempt to shy away from them. In the later books it becomes plain that

Spoiler

Paul Atreides is a drug-addled psychopath who ends up destroying everything he touches.

But in Dune, the first novel, there can be no question that he's the Great White Saviour, the prophesied messiah come to liberate the Fremen. The character is an expanded version of Lawrence of Arabia. This is the central flaw that runs through the entire moral structure, especially in the earlier books.

Herbert certainly argued that the flaw was deliberate. But there's simply no point in pretending that the flaw isn't there. All these arguments that attempt to explain it away are not only facile, they're ripping out the core of the entire work. Dune is a masterpiece with massive flaws, you can argue that the flaws are the whole point, but you can't pretend they don't exist.

Villeneuve's film works by embracing the flaws, particularly the whole Great White Saviour meets Beautiful Native Girl trope.

 

[killdozzer]

Also, the economy on the particular planet is based on drugs.

I believe an interesting point of view can be gained when looking at the spice as oil and not drugs (since it's crucial for long distance travel) and the addiction to be seen as addiction on oil. Then the entire mining of the spice and the control over it gets a more precise reflection of our world which I believe is the axiom of sci-fi.

Yeah, there's no politics in Dune.

Trying to pretend there is no politics in stories we tell is outright silly. No effort to bring politics into the Dune is needed. It never was free of politics.

It's more of a modern day feudalism with a lot of political intrigue. They don't get sent there to save the place. They get sent to Arrakis to die so the emperor gets rid of a rival.

Dune as a story was written as a warning about charismatic leaders. And if you watch closely there are some hints dropped here and there that this is happening here as well. Paul is using the Fremen for his own goals. And the whole idea of a chosen one coming to Arrakis has been planted by the space witches centuries ago. Part because it was a prophecy and part because that's what they wanted as a means to an end. It won't be him saving the planet in the end.

This guy below does a lot of Dune lore videos and he has two videos about why it is explicitely not a white savior story.

EDIT: “I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: May be dangerous to your health." - Frank Herbert (Writer of Dune)

I wish the entire "white man savior" critique was directed at Avatar, where it belongs. Dune simply got it right, since we can see Middle East will never rest until the West stop craving their natural resources. This can be, indeed, seen as our story. Anyone who says it's pure coincidence would have much more explaining to do than someone seeing how we reflect in our tales.

The Dune series is unquestionably some of the greatest SF ever written. But we don't gain anything by trying to gloss over its more questionable elements, and I think one of the real strengths of Villeneuve's film is precisely that he doesn't attempt to shy away from them. In the later books it becomes plain that

Spoiler

Paul Atreides is a drug-addled psychopath who ends up destroying everything he touches.

But in Dune, the first novel, there can be no question that he's the Great White Saviour, the prophesied messiah come to liberate the Fremen. The character is an expanded version of Lawrence of Arabia. This is the central flaw that runs through the entire moral structure, especially in the earlier books.

Herbert certainly argued that the flaw was deliberate. But there's simply no point in pretending that the flaw isn't there. All these arguments that attempt to explain it away are not only facile, they're ripping out the core of the entire work. Dune is a masterpiece with massive flaws, you can argue that the flaws are the whole point, but you can't pretend they don't exist.

Villeneuve's film works by embracing the flaws, particularly the whole Great White Saviour meets Beautiful Native Girl trope.

I don't think these constitute flaws.

 

[killdozzer]

I'm also one of the very few, I watched it obsessively, almost every day for a month in the mid 90's (having read the first 2 books in the 80's). I must have watched Lynch's version 60 or 70 times by now

Love to see there are more fans of this version. There is sure much beauty in it.

 

[killdozzer]

the movie plot is too boring to really enjoy the special effects

This I see as a true tragedy and the downfall of cinema.

 

[killdozzer]

strengths of Villeneuve's film is precisely that he doesn't attempt to shy away from them

He had to make due for over-woking Bladrunner.

 

[q3cpma]

[/SPOILER] But in Dune, the first novel, there can be no question that he's the Great White Saviour, the prophesied messiah come to liberate the Fremen. The character is an expanded version of Lawrence of Arabia. This is the central flaw that runs through the entire moral structure, especially in the earlier books.

That's bullshit, Herbert was very careful in describing Fremen culture as different instead of barbarian. Paul isn't a Messiah that only gives without taking, he clearly grows from this "back to the basics" pragmatism far retired from the pompous environment he was raised in.
To me, it is the same as Julius Caesar writing in his Commentarii de Bello Gallico that the Belgian and Germanic tribes are untainted by the vices of too advanced civilisation. It can be viewed as disparaging only when assumed as dishonest.

 

[krumpol]

But in Dune, the first novel, there can be no question that he's the Great White Saviour

How so? After reading the novel many times, I don't remember Herbert mentioning the color of Paul's skin in first book at all. In fact, there's a sentence in first book clearly stating that his father was not white at all: "The duke was tall, olive-skinned.", which leaves at least some place for questions.