Crosstalk / leakage/ bleeding in digital tunes?

[Golf]

Was just streaming / listening to a 1980s tune (Level 42, »Dune Tune«), as a FLAC 16/44.1 kHz from Tidal. Back in those times, when I was listening to that tune from vinyl, I was always annoyed by the fact, that after some 27 seconds into the song, when a silent part was followed by a louder part, one could hear a soft »echo« of the beginning of that louder part already about half a second before it actually begins.

Listening now to a streamed FLAC version of that particular song, I could hear the exact some echo thing ...

So could it be that any »correct« version of this song has never been published at all, probably?

 

[sergeauckland]

What you describe is typical of pre-echo on vinyl or print-through on analogue tape. I doubt that the streaming version was lifted from vinyl, so must be bad tape print-through. That's possible if Tidal were given audio from a poorly stored master, but surprised that it's happened.

S

 

[Multicore]

Was just streaming / listening to a 1980s tune (Level 42, »Dune Tune«), as a FLAC 16/44.1 kHz from Tidal. Back in those times, when I was listening to that tune from vinyl, I was always annoyed by the fact, that after some 27 seconds into the song, when a silent part was followed by a louder part, one could hear a soft »echo« of the beginning of that louder part already about half a second before it actually begins.

Listening now to a streamed FLAC version of that particular song, I could hear the exact some echo thing ...

Well spotted! I listened to that song in Amazon Music and I don't hear it. Perhaps they got a better master. Ask Tidal what they make of it?

So could it be that any »correct« version of this song has never been published at all, probably?

All sorts of things have defects we have to live with. But, yes, I remember these spiral echo effects being really distracting. And I haven't thought about them for many years, which itself is interesting.

 

[jcarys]

Just listened to the same on Tidal, and yes it's there, but very low. It could be corrected with a remaster/remix, but I doubt it makes sense commercially for the label. There were a couple of CD reissues, but either the band or the label wasn't bothered enough by it to fix the issue.

 

[Multicore]

It's a nice guitar tone, isn't it?

 

[Golf]

What makes me wonder most here is the shortness of that time difference between echo and original. Found no way to measure it, but I estimate it to be 0.5 seconds. What tape recording or playback machine would have a speed to match this time difference in terms of a possible »bleeding« through the tape layers?

 

[Multicore]

Ok. I take it all back. In Amazon Music I can here the pre-eco on my desktop system. I copied it into Reaper and enhanced it. It is just over 1.5 seconds delay. Here it is with bass cut and gain boost before the guitar starts.

At 15 ips that's about 7 to 7.25 inch diameter of tape on the pickup spool. That's within range.

 

[Golf]

Ok. I take it all back. In Amazon Music I can here the pre-eco on my desktop system. I copied it into Reaper and enhanced it. It is just over 1.5 seconds delay. Here it is with bass cut and gain boost before the guitar starts.

At 15 ips that's about 7 to 7.25 inch diameter of tape on the pickup spool. That's within range.

So that this echo could very well be a basic flaw of the then state-of-the-art recording capabilities?

 

[Multicore]

So that this echo could very well be a basic flaw of the then state-of-the-art recording capabilities?

I think so, yes. Like @sergeauckland replied above.

 

[Golf]

I think so, yes. Like @sergeauckland replied above.

Conclusion would be that recordings made under those conditions could be thoroughly »through-echoed«, right?

 

[LTig]

Conclusion would be that recordings made under those conditions could be thoroughly »through-echoed«, right?

AFAIK the preecho is the result of bad storage, not bad recording. Tapes should be rewind regularly to prevent this.

 

[restorer-john]

Ok. I take it all back. In Amazon Music I can here the pre-eco on my desktop system. I copied it into Reaper and enhanced it. It is just over 1.5 seconds delay. Here it is with bass cut and gain boost before the guitar starts.

At 15 ips that's about 7 to 7.25 inch diameter of tape on the pickup spool. That's within range.

Analogue print through effects would vary depending on the tape pack (diameter) on the reels. If the pre-echo remains constant right through the album, it isn't print through.

But you're right, if the track starts near the hub of a NAB reel with not much tape, it's close at 15IPS.

 

[Multicore]

Analogue print through effects would vary depending on the tape pack (diameter) on the reels. If the pre-echo remains constant right through the album, it isn't print through.

But you're right, if the track starts near the hub of a NAB reel with not much tape, it's close at 15IPS.

We've only noticed one pre-echo on this track so far, because the way the music works in the seconds before the guitar kicks in allows us to hear it. Elsewhere in the track the mix masks these very quiet echos.

 

[Multicore]

AFAIK the preecho is the result of bad storage, not bad recording. Tapes should be rewind regularly to prevent this.

Interesting. So it's possible that during production there was nothing wrong and only later (years later) when when a digital copy was made, if the tape hadn't been properly looked after then this pre-echo had emerged. At that point the mastering engineer's job didn't include fixing that kind of problem.

 

[restorer-john]

Interesting. So it's possible that during production there was nothing wrong and only later (years later) when when a digital copy was made, if the tape hadn't been properly looked after then this pre-echo had emerged. At that point the mastering engineer's job didn't include fixing that kind of problem.

I've got plenty of CDs from the early days where analogue print through on the masters is audible in the lead-in of tracks.

 

[Golf]

I've got plenty of CDs from the early days where analogue print through on the masters is audible in the lead-in of tracks.

Listening to that tune on the CD from my collection, I don’t seem to be able to notice that pre-echo. Sort of confusing.

 

[rationaltime]

I don't know the music, but listened on youtube.
I chose a version posted by Level 42. This version
claims to be remastered. I don't know what to listen
for, but I don't hear hear a pre echo of the guitar at
00:29 Do you hear it?

Level 42 Dune Tune