Are Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC Inconsistent?

[creativepart]

At the risk of being hounded off of ACR I'd like to post one opinion about what a new member here sees from day one.

1. It seems that Amir tests and only tests usually. In some of the tests I've seen and I think the Yiggy might be one, he states that he never listened to the equipment play music. OK. But we're interested in how these things sound. Good results on testing is good. Good sounding is better.

2. Test after test here is shown in comparison to a Topping dac. And, outside of ACR Topping is not a mainstream brand. Before coming here I'd NEVER heard of the brand. Period. If Topping is so good, why isn't everyone saying "Wow, that Topping Dac!" Why are there tests here of every Topping Dac and not everywhere else in the audio publishing world? Seems unusual, no? Why would any member of ACR own anything BUT a Topping dac, looking at these reviews and these prices?

3. Vast portions of the audio review and publishing industry is based on the idea that measurements are only one data point. That critical listening to the equipment being reviewed is vital as well. This is why Stereophile splits the two things in their reviews and Absolute Sound has no measurements at all. Here that seems to be ridiculed or certainly depreciated.

4. Some brands here are universally vilified - over and over - and other brands, many of them little known, are praised - over and over. Doesn't mean that the vilified brands are not really bad or that the praised brands are not actually that good. But it does appear suspect from the outside. It may only be a perception, but there it is. Surely objective regulars here can see this?

I'm agnostic on these things. I've not heard any Schitt or Topping equipment. I can't tell you if one is good and the other bad. I'm only saying what a new member sees here when they join and start to read the testing reviews.

 

[RayDunzl]

At the risk of being hounded off of ACR

Do you mean ASR?

 

[amirm]

1. It seems that Amir tests and only tests usually. In some of the tests I've seen and I think the Yiggy might be one, he states that he never listened to the equipment play music. OK. But we're interested in how these things sound. Good results on testing is good. Good sounding is better.

I have actually spent quite a bit of time listening to Yggdrasil including asking the owner what content he used where he heard the most difference between it and Topping DX7s which he also has. So while there is some truth in what you say , it is not applicable in this case.

For a more complete answer, please see my measurement FAQ: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...erstanding-audio-measurements.2351/post-65101

1. Why don't you listen to audio equipment you review?
I do listen and compare headphone DAC/amplifiers. There, output impedance, distortion or uneven frequency response can result in audible differences.

You must be referencing DACs where I do not perform listening tests. Unlike headphone amps, I cannot match volumes on DACs without external means. Changing their volume control is hit and miss. Without level matching, listening test results are unreliable. Indeed through my headphone testing, I go through this time and time again. Without level matching, there is "night and day" difference in "air," "soundstage," "fidelity," "smoothness," etc. But once I level match, as the line goes in the great movie Shawshank Redemption, differences disappear like a fart in the wind.

Audible differences between DACs is likely even less than headphone amps. As such, it is even more important to match levels. And perform the test blind in controlled manner. So much extraneous factors affect our perception of our audio which have nothing to do with what enters our ears.

You may disagree but remember, you are disagreeing with the entire audio science/research community and in this forum, we follow what the science/research tell us. Not made up notions by audiophiles.

2. We don't listen to graphs, we listen to sound. Why look at graphs?
Agreed. We value listening tests even more than others. But per #1, the listening tests must be controlled and devoid of bias before it is accepted. Once there, I would be the first to put them ahead of graphs and measurements.

Sorry, but subjectivists, uncontrolled testing is of no value so please don't keep saying "your ears" say different. It is your ear+brain that is saying something different. You have to exclude all the other factors your brain takes into account beside sound before we look at your feedback.

----
I actually intended to do a careful listening test with the Yggdrasil but its owner asked that it be sent back immediately and I did so.

 

[svart-hvitt]

At the risk of being hounded off of ACR I'd like to post one opinion about what a new member here sees from day one.

1. It seems that Amir tests and only tests usually. In some of the tests I've seen and I think the Yiggy might be one, he states that he never listened to the equipment play music. OK. But we're interested in how these things sound. Good results on testing is good. Good sounding is better.

2. Test after test here is shown in comparison to a Topping dac. And, outside of ACR Topping is not a mainstream brand. Before coming here I'd NEVER heard of the brand. Period. If Topping is so good, why isn't everyone saying "Wow, that Topping Dac!" Why are there tests here of every Topping Dac and not everywhere else in the audio publishing world? Seems unusual, no? Why would any member of ACR own anything BUT a Topping dac, looking at these reviews and these prices?

3. Vast portions of the audio review and publishing industry is based on the idea that measurements are only one data point. That critical listening to the equipment being reviewed is vital as well. This is why Stereophile splits the two things in their reviews and Absolute Sound has no measurements at all. Here that seems to be ridiculed or certainly depreciated.

4. Some brands here are universally vilified - over and over - and other brands, many of them little known, are praised - over and over. Doesn't mean that the vilified brands are not really bad or that the praised brands are not actually that good. But it does appear suspect from the outside. It may only be a perception, but there it is. Surely objective regulars here can see this?

I'm agnostic on these things. I've not heard any Schitt or Topping equipment. I can't tell you if one is good and the other bad. I'm only saying what a new member sees here when they join and start to read the testing reviews.

Let my try and answer:

Ad 1: This is a science oriented place. Objectivity comes before subjectivity.

Ad 2: Topping is just a reference. A decent reference, or benchmark.

Ad 3: If you want to do listening tests, we'd need many participants and preferably meta analyses of many such studies. ASR tests based on criteria that are psychoacoustically chosen.

Ad 4: Brands of poor measurements will not be praised on an objectively oriented site.

 

[amirm]

2. Test after test here is shown in comparison to a Topping dac. And, outside of ACR Topping is not a mainstream brand. Before coming here I'd NEVER heard of the brand. Period. If Topping is so good, why isn't everyone saying "Wow, that Topping Dac!" Why are there tests here of every Topping Dac and not everywhere else in the audio publishing world? Seems unusual, no? Why would any member of ACR own anything BUT a Topping dac, looking at these reviews and these prices?

Topping is a chinese brand, often sold from China direct. They do zero marketing and have no marketing shills in forums. So you are not going to hear much about them in general audio circles.

I landed on them by chance after testing their Topping D30 based on member recommendation. After that, I tested more of their product and realized this is a real engineering company. You know the type that actually tests and verifies the performance of their products before shipping. Seemingly a lot of boutique audio companies either skip that step or don't take it seriously. So no wonder that Topping has risen to the top of the brands the members of ASR Forum reference, or own.

That said, I pair products with like ones usually. See this review of Benchmark DAC3 for example: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...view-and-measurements-of-benchmark-dac3.3545/

You see that I pair it up against RME ADI-2 Pro:

I suggest that you become familiar with top performing DACs in this forum as they are some of the most well engineered DACs around. Topping is in a family of few, the likes of which includes the above Benchmark, RME, Oppo, etc.

 

[amirm]

3. Vast portions of the audio review and publishing industry is based on the idea that measurements are only one data point. That critical listening to the equipment being reviewed is vital as well. This is why Stereophile splits the two things in their reviews and Absolute Sound has no measurements at all. Here that seems to be ridiculed or certainly depreciated.

Unfortunately stereophile subjective reviews are often not useful or scientific. Levels are never matched, testing is not blind, bias is strong, etc. And at any rate, you have those reviews if you want them so we are not here to duplicate that.

What our mission here is to follow audio science. There, listening tests are valid but they must follow proper protocol as I explained in my FAQ. Failing that, we want to not only see how equipment measures, but how it compares to others in the same test. This is something stereophile doesn't do.

Note that my reviews routinely draw on science of psychoacoustics when discussing measured data. That is a far more reliable method to know how something sounds than some dude with white hair, lost hearing, non-critical listening, biased to the core on expensive audio gear and manufacturer favors is going to say.

 

[SIY]

He is wrong. I have offered my project files to anyone who request it. It is right there in the review. Two people have and I sent it to them.

I just saw this. Yes, I will confirm that Amir provided them, they look exactly like what he has presented, and there's nothing hidden in there.

Disclosure: after posting a few times at Head Fi, I walked away when purely technical posts of mine (related to measurements and analysis of an accessory from one of his sponsors that was clearly ineffective and arguably fraudulent) were deleted and other ones edited without my permission. So my sojourn there was under one week.

 

[Guermantes]

Thanks for the perspective. I'm relatively new, too. I also feel I struggle sometimes in balancing the creative part of myself (as a composer) with the objective (as an audio analyst).

My take on your points.

1. This is Amir's site, so he is the most active in making measurements. Other people do offer measurements and they are very welcomed. Amir often does listen to the equipment he tests and comments about this in his reviews but most people are here for the measurements.

2. Outside of North America, Schiit for example is also not a mainstream brand. A quick search on Amazon.com.au results in 20 listings for Topping products and 0 for Schiit. That said, mainstream audio here in Oz is more likely to be Sony, Apple, Samsung, LG, Pioneer, Denon, etc. Mainstream = advertising.

3. ASR positions itself as an alternative to the normal output of the audio review and publishing industry. We are here for that alternative view because we can read subjective listening opinions everywhere else. We are here for the verifiable facts without the song and dance routines. Most of us are critical listeners as well (it's my day job), so we also understand how much "listening" is influenced by personal bias and psychology. The more critical listening you do, the more self-critical you will become and understand what your own (and others') shortcomings are.

4. Thanks for this. Yes, I do worry that there is some unproductive product bashing going on that undermines the objective nature of the site. The moderators often chime in to try and tone it down. I'm afraid this is one of the downsides/upsides of internet fora in general: people are generally free to express their opinions without journalistic censorship. Thankfully it never gets as toxic as some of the other audio sites, as most people here are intelligent and there are very many audio professionals contributing. This helps keep the tone at a higher level.

Enjoy the site and be well informed.

Richard

 

[Thomas savage]

We just measure the stuff, we are not telling anyone what to think or indeed dictating to them what they should value.

Consider us a data point in ones decision making, its entirely up to you all as individuals what if any significance you place on the work and resulting discussions that take place here.

Often i feel people take it as if we are telling you what to think, we present data the responsibility in terms of understanding that is down to you all.. we will help though if ones open to such or requires it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Just checked back in here after reading the 205 measurements a couple weeks back.
On another forum with a very long Oppo going out of business thread, I referred to Amir's measurements during a thread tangent on how the 205 wasn't that great, overpriced v performance, it takes $5k to get a decent DAC, cheap Chinese crap, etc., etc., etc.

Immediately 2 posters referenced Amir's "suspect measurements", that the Topping DAC sounded like sh!t & the Yggy was a phenomenal DAC, far superior to any D-S DAC, the 205 included.

Never heard any Topping or Schiit, so I couldn't comment but I did mention that John Atkinson's Yggy measurements pretty much echoed Amir's and no one seems to question JA.

I came back here today thinking about asking Amir why he thought his measurements have engendered derision from certain quarters as they seem to pretty much follow what I see in Stereophile & a few other trustworthy sites.
Obviously Schiit adherents aren't going to be pleased and there is considerable bias against Chinese gear and the designers.

So thanks for this thread, Amir.

I'm no slave to measurements alone but distortion is distortion no matter if you like the way it sounds or not.
I love great distortion from a tubed guitar amp but I want my audio system to deliver that distortion undistorted if that makes any sense.

I think the difference is Atkinson, though questioning some Yggy results more than usual, did so at the tail end of a subjective review that praised it. He also stopped short of saying it was poorly engineered for the price. And he didn't really compare it to anything else much less something costing one tenth as much which seemed superior.

We've seen how Jude and atomicbob get nearly identical results, but speak very differently about the gear also praising it.

Amir tested the unit, said these aren't very good results. They represent poor value for the money as the engineering is poor. Oh, and here I'll compare it to something costing a tiny fraction which shows good results are possible for less money. Leaving it all out there unambiguously that the Yggy did poorly and you could eclipse the results for pocket change. Any fanboy or owner had nothing to grasp onto to prevent the idea the Yggy was not a good DAC.

So Jude, and atomicbob praise it for reasons unknown as the test results in no way justify any praise. JA questioned some results and decisions, but that is on one page of measurements at the end of 3 pages of glowing subjective praise for the entire idea, and of the sound quality. Amir basically had nothing good to point to about it, and threw it in sharp relief against a little known Chinese DAC that is surprisingly good.

 

[Thomas savage]

I think the difference is Atkinson, though questioning some Yggy results more than usual, did so at the tail end of a subjective review that praised it. He also stopped short of saying it was poorly engineered for the price. And he didn't really compare it to anything else much less something costing one tenth as much which seemed superior.

We've seen how Jude and atomicbob get nearly identical results, but speak very differently about the gear also praising it.

Amir tested the unit, said these aren't very good results. They represent poor value for the money as the engineering is poor. Oh, and here I'll compare it to something costing a tiny fraction which shows good results are possible for less money. Leaving it all out there unambiguously that the Yggy did poorly and you could eclipse the results for pocket change. Any fanboy or owner had nothing to grasp onto to prevent the idea the Yggy was not a good DAC.

So Jude, and atomicbob praise it for reasons unknown as the test results in no way justify any praise. JA questioned some results and decisions, but that is on one page of measurements at the end of 3 pages of glowing subjective praise for the entire idea, and of the sound quality. Amir basically had nothing good to point to about it, and threw it in sharp relief against a little known Chinese DAC that is surprisingly good.

And so sterophile dies , Atkinson unable to write the honest conclusion.

His testing is nothing more than a ' oh by the way' thoroughly lampooning any credibility it might bring .

Oh well, who buys print mags now anyway lol

 

[SIY]

I will often look at his measurements at their website (reading the "reviews" is generally a waste of time). They're often very useful and revealing. When something turns out to be incompetent, the dance explaining why the "reviewer" with exquisite perception was unable to hear major technical flaws is entertaining as well, I'm embarrassed to admit.

 

[Thomas savage]

I will often look at his measurements at their website (reading the "reviews" is generally a waste of time). They're often very useful and revealing. When something turns out to be incompetent, the dance explaining why the "reviewer" with exquisite perception was unable to hear major technical flaws is entertaining as well, I'm embarrassed to admit.

Ha ha yes it has the ' squirm ' factor i guess.

 

[Blumlein 88]

At the risk of being hounded off of ACR I'd like to post one opinion about what a new member here sees from day one.

1. It seems that Amir tests and only tests usually. In some of the tests I've seen and I think the Yiggy might be one, he states that he never listened to the equipment play music. OK. But we're interested in how these things sound. Good results on testing is good. Good sounding is better.

2. Test after test here is shown in comparison to a Topping dac. And, outside of ACR Topping is not a mainstream brand. Before coming here I'd NEVER heard of the brand. Period. If Topping is so good, why isn't everyone saying "Wow, that Topping Dac!" Why are there tests here of every Topping Dac and not everywhere else in the audio publishing world? Seems unusual, no? Why would any member of ACR own anything BUT a Topping dac, looking at these reviews and these prices?

3. Vast portions of the audio review and publishing industry is based on the idea that measurements are only one data point. That critical listening to the equipment being reviewed is vital as well. This is why Stereophile splits the two things in their reviews and Absolute Sound has no measurements at all. Here that seems to be ridiculed or certainly depreciated.

4. Some brands here are universally vilified - over and over - and other brands, many of them little known, are praised - over and over. Doesn't mean that the vilified brands are not really bad or that the praised brands are not actually that good. But it does appear suspect from the outside. It may only be a perception, but there it is. Surely objective regulars here can see this?

I'm agnostic on these things. I've not heard any Schitt or Topping equipment. I can't tell you if one is good and the other bad. I'm only saying what a new member sees here when they join and start to read the testing reviews.

I don't think anyone will hound you off the forum.

I sort of agree about comparing everything to a Topping which isn't well known. The early quest Amir set himself was to find hidden gems in the DAC market. Devices that weren't expensive that measured surprisingly well. He wondered if anything below $500 was as good as anyone needed. Before the Topping was found, and tested many threads went on about the Behringer 204HD, an $80 ADC/DAC which had a DAC and analog stage of surprisingly good quality for peanuts. Prior to that Amir tested a number of inexpensive DACs and I think was beginning to ponder, "well maybe these cheap DACs are no good". As Schiit is so highly touted in so many places in the USA as super good for not much money it is no surprise he would test one of those. The results were so surprisingly bad, he tested more, and then more looking for the good Schiit. Along the way he was given a Topping, and in time investigated more of their gear. There may be other brands out there that Amir hasn't tripped over yet that are surprisingly good.

As for not listening or little listening, this site is about measured results. Sighted uncontrolled listening is not reliable. So this is a counterpoint to the myriad of other places where you listen and describe what you hear however you wish. Most of us here like to have some corroboration of how well something performs. Quite a few people here have some considerable experience with quality gear beyond what has so far been measured. Though you do have measures of the RME gear, and the Benchmark so far. Auralic has turned out well. There will be others in time.

Now a question to you, and feel free to answer honestly any way you feel about all this?

If you were considering Schiit, would these measurements give you pause? Or would you listen to it and not care? If you were in the market for a similarly priced Schiit, would you now give the Topping a chance though you previously never heard of one? That I think is the value of what Amir does here.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Ha ha yes it has the ' squirm ' factor i guess.

Oh the one I really liked is the amp measurement where JA went to so much trouble testing it because of its strange behaviour. Distortion grew as a signal persisted with time. To only find out the Schiit people knew this would happen, and didn't bother to tell him. You could tell he was miffed at them about this.

To me the whole Schiit saga is a warning about subjective only reviewing. People claim to be able to hear big differences in incredibly trivial signal differences or in some cases those too small to measure or in other cases ones that don't actually exist except in marketing. Yet people will listen and decide and be steadfast in their evaluations which simply don't stand up to scrutiny. I think the entire Schiit enterprise was a poke in the eye of subjective audiophiles by a couple guys experienced in the industry who realized they could spin a good story, and half-ass make anything while making a good profit doing it. They probably are surprised how well it all went.

 

[Milt]

Creativepart, If I may, I would like to expand a bit on your remark re: Topping etc.
I resemble Amir's remark in that I do have white hair but I have had white\graying hair since my 30's but my hearing is still pretty decent.
Left ear good to 16KHz, right ear not quite so good at 15. That said, I've been involved in audio as a music lover since I was a pre-teen.
I worked for a local, Seattle, high-end shop in the late 70's making speakers etc., from raw parts and have been around audiophiles since that time.
I get excoriated whenever I post my impression that a lot of Audiophiles are closed minded and adhere to certain dogmas and biases.
Not to pat myself on the back but I've always tried to stay open to new developments and advances in the audio world.
Some I like a lot, some like uber expensive cables have not proven their value to me during personal experience.
I don't look down my nose at folks who wax poetic about them, it's their money and if it makes them happy so be it.

There is still a ton of bias against CCC, Cheap Chinese Crap, just like the bias against Japanese gear back in the day.
This sound nuts to current day audiophiles have no experience from that time.
Direct drive turntables used to be vilified. Metal-coned drivers were always bright & harsh. Digital was cold and well, digital.
The Hypex NCore amps are gaining a following to the point that none other than Morris Kessler of ATI has been making NCore amps
for a couple of years now. If you're not familiar with his name or his company, you probably should be.

I do remember when audiophiles were searching for a better playback medium than vinyl due to all of it's well-documented short comings.
Vinyl has been going through a renaissance now for the several years that shows no signs of slowing.
To many audiophiles surround sound is unnatural. "If God had wanted us to listen in surround why do we only have 2 ears", stuff like that.
Analogous to what people said about the Wright Bros.

Surely all new formats and technologies go through their teething period and digital today is a far cry from when I bought my first 2nd gen Sony ES player in 83-84. But get this, there are now adherents to the original Philips DAC chip, the TDA1549 I think, that was once reviled far and wide.

I just like to keep an open mind about things. There are a lot of very smart, talented and insightful Chinese audio engineers on the scene right now.
I would love to have Amir be able to test a Denafrips Terminator DAC or a Holo Audio Spring Level 3.
They're both Internet direct only, engineered and built in China and have a devoted but small following. Both are R2R custom DACs
The Holo Audio Spring is distributed by Kitsune in Lynnwood Wa.

Overall, right now is the best time in my lifetime for Audio & Video reproduction and the options are truly overwhelming.
I very much appreciate what Amir is doing here, the other contributors to this site and the spirit of this forum.

Sincere apologies for the verbosity of my post.

 

[Xulonn]

If Topping is so good, why isn't everyone saying "Wow, that Topping Dac!"

"Everyone" will never say "WOW" about either the Schiit or the Topping - but many people are praising the D50 - and more are learning about this excellent new product every day.

Topping is a Chinese brand, often sold from China direct. They do zero marketing and have no marketing shills in forums

The Topping D50 started shipping in March, 2018 - 4 months ago. I am on the MassDrop request list for the D50, and it has gone from 92 a couple of weeks ago to 229 requests as of today, so yet another drop is about to take place. At least 80 sold on e-Bay. Two group buys a LittleMart (Singapore) sold out and another one is being organized. Aliexpress vendors have sold more than 225 units, etc.

There are still excellent audio components manufactured in Europe, USA, Japan, etc., but they are most often more expensive than Chinese manufactured components.

The D50 is going to kick Shiit's butt in the marketplace. I have watched the "native" Chinese audio components improve over the years. Fifteen years ago I bought and sold two used ASL (Antique Sound Labs) amps - a pair of 300B monoblocks and a stereo single-ended KT88 amp. I was given a pair of ASL 6L6 "entry level" monoblocks to evaluate. I tried them with my Belles preamp and Klipsch Forte II 99dB efficient speakers. They weren't very good, and I did not keep them. I don't know who actually manufactured them, but ASL is gone. Other companies learned their lessons and kept improving product quality while keeping prices low. Cayin was one of the first Chinese companies to focus on audio equipment quality in their own product line (they also use the name "Spark Electronics). In 1995 two of their top people left and founded Line Magnetic, and products from both companies have made Stereophile's Recommended lists. And now there are a number of other good Chinese companies like Opera, Yaqin, Meixing MingDa, Xiang Sheng. Unlike Euro/American manufacturers, the Chinese companies also sell OEM to other marketers, and no one knows if all variants use the same quality of components and test to the same quality standards. Topping and SMSL seem to be two of the best in thi mini-component field, and I will soon have a Topping D50/PA3 separate DAC and amp combo to compare to the SMSL Q5Pro DAC/Amp single unit with remote. (Unfortunately, I don't heve test equipment - or the skills and knowledge of Amir to to hard-core testing.)

It looks to me like Topping moving up in reputation to the level of some of the other Chinese brands, but with less expensive and smaller components. I don't think that Topping does it, but many of their Chinese competitors are OEM/multi brand marketing models, so that direct comparisons of products based on exterior appearance may not be possible if what's inside is not identical. Perhaps identifying dissimilarities is another aspect of reviewing and testing that Amir can consider. The Schiit "stealth upgrade" demonstrates nicely how changing an electronic component can affect performance.

There is a double-edged sword in the process of moving Euro/American manufacturing to China and supervising quality - the people there are not only learning about, but gaining experience in high quality and rigorous standards. Many will try to cheat to save money, but others will learn and use high quality manufacturing compete in the global market for quality audio gear. That is what I see happening with Topping.

 

[creativepart]

Thanks all for commenting. The only reason I posted was because people in this thread were wondering out loud why folks in other forums or publications would cast aspersions or doubts upon the results found here. That was the whole impetus of this thread. I think the things I pointed out go a long way in describing what is making others "on the outside" of this venue wonder aloud what the heck is going on here.

I'm not saying that anything Amir is doing wrong, or is untrue or unreliable. I'm only saying what an outsider or new member sees when they come here.

Even in this thread the Schitt is compared with the Topping... again. It's kind of non-stop. And, then long time members make fun of Schitt products and other people's opinions of them. While gleefully pointing to the test results that position the $2000 Schitt products as worse than a $300 product no one outside of here as heard of. As if only you folks are clued into the truth. (I have zero opinion of Schitt products myself. Never had one or even heard one.)

See my point?

It's Amir's website. He can do and test and compare with anything he wants. I've no issue with any of that. I myself owned a network of forums 200 times bigger than ASR (not ACR, oops). I ran it my way for 19 years and sold it to retire (I'm nearing 70). So, I get that. I only wanted to offer an outside prospective. Nothing more.

 

[Milt]

You did a nice job.
I appreciated it.

 

[Xulonn]

And, then long time members make fun of Schitt products

When a company's name and product nomenclature are based on sophomoric humor, (Schiit Fulla??) they are going to attract fans that enjoy such humor. But then they should expect some of the public comments about the company and its roducts to be similarly crude and sophomoric.