Are Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil DAC Inconsistent?

[Blumlein 88]

Apologies for the long post, but I got out my (worn) soapbox...

When Philips first released "Bitstream" and Sony released a PDM Bitstream-like D/A in one of their TOTL ES integrated amplifiers, I listened to their offerings against the current SOTA at the time which was the PCM-58P selection K, J and S which were in their flawlessly reviewed CDP-338esD and CDP-X7esd. Soon after the PCM-63 based Denons and others came along. The Denons were extremely good.

Very soon after, Matsushita released their MASH (PWM) and Sony had their own silicon (High Density Linear D/A), Pioneer called theirs the Direct Linear Conversion and Yamaha had S-Bit. We sold them all and played with them all, compared each model etc.

None of the 1st generation 'one bit' machines sounded anywhere near as clean as either TOTL TDA-1541 (S1) (Philips) based machines or the PCM-58/63 (Burr Brown) based Japanese machines (most with 8x O/S) chipsets by that stage.

What I heard (in very quiet and well designed demonstration rooms and at home with loan models), was a loss of detail in low level parts of classical music and a general 'fuzz' as reverb/echoes faded out.

By the time '1 bit' had come along, digital recording was about as good as it ever got for CD- the early issues with A/Ds had been solved and dynamics were still being preserved. Plenty of recording were SBM or better and we were getting fewer 'this CD was originally recorded on analog equipment' (i.e. lots of low level woodles* and hiss etc)

So, I made many speeches to my audiophile friends (back in the early 90s) that this new 'single bit' was flawed and sounded poor. It was only ever conceived to save money (which is perfectly true- read the Philips development details on the design), but had a few gains in a few parameters. Philips themselves stated the design was for portable, consumer and car audio and certainly not for the discerning (read wealthy audiophiles perhaps?) let alone state of the art products.

I bought and stockpiled a number of run-out TOTL multibit machines which I still have and use. My daily go-to CD player is a Sony CDP-X7esd (USD $2000 in 1989/90). The tested performance of that machine is still state of the art for 16/44. In a few parameters, I'm yet to see it bettered.**

The only 'single bit' D/A I listened without prejudice (sorry George Michael) to back in around 2000ish was was a gorgeous little Rotel RDP-980 which incidentally contained an Asahi Kasei D/A converter (a small and unknown company at the time actually). It was a joy to listen to and finally banished the prejudice I had to PWM. That said, I could hear the muting at LSB/0dB level, and that annoyed me. (fussy a##hole I am) I still use that D/A for TV and movie sound via SPDIF optical from the flat panel TV.

If we weren't so geographically separated, it'd be easy (and fun) to compare some of my classic TOTL CD players with modern offerings. On 16/44, I'd be happy to wager that most of the new D/As only perform better on 24/44 or above, and, even then, the incremental improvement is nowhere near the theoretical. Consider that in 1990, THD in commercial D/As (multibit) had hit the theoretical limit of what 16/44 was capable of- you can't say the same of anything made these days.

So, yes, 'the brain of the perceiver' can have an effect, but I'd like to think that back then, when the D/A world was young (and so was I), I gave any and all conversion methods a fair go. Multibit won out for me back then. I was ridiculed when I was snapping up BB based machines at cost less 40%, but I know for sure it was the right decision.

* woodles. Tape head LF modulation from analog recorders
** review data (AP system 1) from a few individual magazine reviews on file (I can dig them out)

Well in the days of the one bit PCM DACs that sometimes had a gray sound to them I thought, I managed with a Meridian 563. It was in time replaced by a Wadia 25 which used 4 PCM 1702s.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Apologies for the long post, but I got out my (worn) soapbox...

When Philips first released "Bitstream" and Sony released a PDM Bitstream-like D/A in one of their TOTL ES integrated amplifiers, I listened to their offerings against the current SOTA at the time which was the PCM-58P selection K, J and S which were in their flawlessly reviewed CDP-338esD and CDP-X7esd. Soon after the PCM-63 based Denons and others came along. The Denons were extremely good.

Very soon after, Matsushita released their MASH (PWM) and Sony had their own silicon (High Density Linear D/A), Pioneer called theirs the Direct Linear Conversion and Yamaha had S-Bit. We sold them all and played with them all, compared each model etc.

None of the 1st generation 'one bit' machines sounded anywhere near as clean as either TOTL TDA-1541 (S1) (Philips) based machines or the PCM-58/63 (Burr Brown) based Japanese machines (most with 8x O/S) chipsets by that stage.

What I heard (in very quiet and well designed demonstration rooms and at home with loan models), was a loss of detail in low level parts of classical music and a general 'fuzz' as reverb/echoes faded out.

By the time '1 bit' had come along, digital recording was about as good as it ever got for CD- the early issues with A/Ds had been solved and dynamics were still being preserved. Plenty of recording were SBM or better and we were getting fewer 'this CD was originally recorded on analog equipment' (i.e. lots of low level woodles* and hiss etc)

So, I made many speeches to my audiophile friends (back in the early 90s) that this new 'single bit' was flawed and sounded poor. It was only ever conceived to save money (which is perfectly true- read the Philips development details on the design), but had a few gains in a few parameters. Philips themselves stated the design was for portable, consumer and car audio and certainly not for the discerning (read wealthy audiophiles perhaps?) let alone state of the art products.

I bought and stockpiled a number of run-out TOTL multibit machines which I still have and use. My daily go-to CD player is a Sony CDP-X7esd (USD $2000 in 1989/90). The tested performance of that machine is still state of the art for 16/44. In a few parameters, I'm yet to see it bettered.**

The only 'single bit' D/A I listened without prejudice (sorry George Michael) to back in around 2000ish was was a gorgeous little Rotel RDP-980 which incidentally contained an Asahi Kasei D/A converter (a small and unknown company at the time actually). It was a joy to listen to and finally banished the prejudice I had to PWM. That said, I could hear the muting at LSB/0dB level, and that annoyed me. (fussy a##hole I am) I still use that D/A for TV and movie sound via SPDIF optical from the flat panel TV.

If we weren't so geographically separated, it'd be easy (and fun) to compare some of my classic TOTL CD players with modern offerings. On 16/44, I'd be happy to wager that most of the new D/As only perform better on 24/44 or above, and, even then, the incremental improvement is nowhere near the theoretical. Consider that in 1990, THD in commercial D/As (multibit) had hit the theoretical limit of what 16/44 was capable of- you can't say the same of anything made these days.

So, yes, 'the brain of the perceiver' can have an effect, but I'd like to think that back then, when the D/A world was young (and so was I), I gave any and all conversion methods a fair go. Multibit won out for me back then. I was ridiculed when I was snapping up BB based machines at cost less 40%, but I know for sure it was the right decision.

* woodles. Tape head LF modulation from analog recorders
** review data (AP system 1) from a few individual magazine reviews on file (I can dig them out)

I agree with your assessment of the period and the classic multi-bits. I sill own DACs with 1541s and 1704s to go along with AKM4490s and Sabre.

 

[Grave]

I care about right and left channels to be matched as closely as possible . And dare I say. The person mixing from a huge console so that everyone enjoys music knows what the average person listening to their mix is using as playback. Mainly el cheapo gear 99.9%. If you care about audio playback you have to make adjustments.



1) There is no magical difference between good measuring and good sounding gear in my experience. Yes you that proclaim will never be enlightened. You will never try and will never experience something different.

What adjustments? Added distortion?

Something different as in low fidelity equipment which is not transparent?

 

[andreasmaaan]

You finish up very well but much of the discourse mentioned in the body of the post IMO is not really caused by the manufacturer. They do not vilify SD design' but do build multi-bit and feel it is better sounding. As far as price, they sell multi-bit DACs starting at $250, so people do have choices. If one feel measurements are the only arbiter, they should not buy a multi-bit DAC from any manufacturer. If people believe what they are hearing (no matter how misguided they may be) they shouldn't be faulted for this choice.

This is a fair point about prices of multi-bit DACs, which are more expensive to build. So yeh, Schiit's prices are quite consistent with other manufacturers with this in mind.

My comments concerning their vilifying other designers were mostly referring to statements from Schiit in this interview, which I found after first being disconcerted by all the commentary about Shiit on this forum.

Here, they call the people who "run" the industry "IYIs", which they explain is short for "intellectuals yet idiots", among other snide remarks that I feel are unwarranted and unacceptable. So I have no hesitation to use the word "vilify" to describe Schiit's attitude toward the rest of the industry.

You can see it and judge for yourself whether you agree with those other points of mine.

 

[Blumlein 88]

This is a fair point about prices of multi-bit DACs, which are more expensive to build. So yeh, Schiit's prices are quite consistent with other manufacturers with this in mind.

My comments concerning their vilifying other designers were mostly referring to statements from Schiit in this interview, which I found after first being disconcerted by all the commentary about Shiit on this forum.

Here, they call the people who "run" the industry "IYIs", which they explain is short for "intellectuals yet idiots", among other snide remarks that I feel are unwarranted and unacceptable. So I have no hesitation to use the word "vilify" to describe Schiit's attitude toward the rest of the industry.

You can see it and judge for yourself whether you agree with those other points of mine.

Irish coffee....... perhaps without the coffee? Kudos for the anti-MQA and anti-Dolby sentiment.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

This is a fair point about prices of multi-bit DACs, which are more expensive to build. So yeh, Schiit's prices are quite consistent with other manufacturers with this in mind.

My comments concerning their vilifying other designers were mostly referring to statements from Schiit in this interview, which I found after first being disconcerted by all the commentary about Shiit on this forum.

Here, they call the people who "run" the industry "IYIs", which they explain is short for "intellectuals yet idiots", among other snide remarks that I feel are unwarranted and unacceptable. So I have no hesitation to use the word "vilify" to describe Schiit's attitude toward the rest of the industry.

You can see it and judge for yourself whether you agree with those other points of mine.

I see what you say about the interview comments etc but look at them more as done for entertainment rather than putting forth facts. YMMV

 

[Wombat]

I see what you say about the interview comments etc but look at them more as done for entertainment rather than putting forth facts. YMMV

Pure marketing bullshit. They must have a sense of humour like yours, it seems.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I see what you say about the interview comments etc but look at them more as done for entertainment rather than putting forth facts. YMMV

Sure, it's possible to take them as clowns rather than serious critics of the industry.

But the problem remains that their products are not demonstrably better (to put it mildly) than the competition they are dissing.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Pure marketing bullshit. They must have a sense of humour like yours, it seems.

Are you ever happy? LOL This a hobby, no lives have been shed during the DAC wars. People choose to believe what they want. I personally as a general rule do not read or put any weight marketing, as I know it is rather meaningless.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Are you ever happy? LOL This a hobby, no lives have been shed during the DAC wars. People choose to believe what they want. I personally as a general rule do not read or put any weight marketing, as I know it is rather meaningless.

You wouldn't die for your DAC?

 

[Wombat]

Are you ever happy? LOL This a hobby, no lives have been shed during the DAC wars. People choose to believe what they want. I personally as a general rule do not read or put any weight marketing, as I know it is rather meaningless.

Believe what they want. I fully agree that they can. This forum, however, is more discriminating re what is real and what is pure opinion and you seem to be disconnected from this. I have yet to see you factually contribute to this aim.

I am happy to disagree with you. You are free to be happy to disagree with me. I am averse to obvious bullshit.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Believe what they want. I fully agree that they can. This forum, however, is more discriminating re what is real and what is pure opinion and you seem to be disconnected from this. I have yet to see you seriously contribute to this aim. View attachment 14426

Aint we rather judgemental.

 

[Wombat]

Aint we rather judgemental.

The Royal 'we' I assume.

Can you speak your mind without the insecurity of a Youtube buffer?

 

[March Audio]

Well in the days of the one bit PCM DACs that sometimes had a gray sound to them I thought, I managed with a Meridian 563. It was in time replaced by a Wadia 25 which used 4 PCM 1702s.

Ooh I had a 500 and 563, my brother is still using them now. Wow, must be over 20 years old.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

The Royal 'we' I assume.

Can you speak your mind without the insecurity of a Youtube buffer?

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so a youtube video should be worth a bit more.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Consider that in 1990, THD in commercial D/As (multibit) had hit the theoretical limit of what 16/44 was capable of- you can't say the same of anything made these days.

The bit in bold is what surprises me. When you say multibit, do you mean to include multibit DS?

It seems to me that modern multibit DS chips measure significantly better than older "true" multibit chips ever did.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

You wouldn't die for your DAC?

LOL no but I think I need to look out for a wisdom of Wombats

 

[Blumlein 88]

The bit in bold is what surprises me. When you say multibit, do you mean to include multibit DS?

It seems to me that modern multibit DS chips measure significantly better than older "true" multibit chips ever did.

Yes I don't remember it being that way either. Maybe someone has some good measurements to link to somewhere on the web.

 

[restorer-john]

The bit in bold is what surprises me. When you say multibit, do you mean to include multibit DS?

It seems to me that modern multibit DS chips measure significantly better than older "true" multibit chips ever did.

What I am saying is, parameters like dynamic range, distortion and S/N had hit the theoretical limits for 16/44 sources (for complete built up products). Now we have 24/192 sources and the D/A converters are nowhere near equivalent limits.

On a 16/44 source level playing field, modern D/As (including plenty of Amir's tests it would seem) are doing rather poorly in overall S/N. I've asked Amir to put 16/44 tests (as the majority of most people's sources are derived from 16/44 and that would allow meaningful comparisons with players from yesteryear) but he seems to like 24/44.

You cannot make a fair comparison between CD players D/As of the past and D/As of today without 16/44 tests, replete with 0dBFS THD and S/N.

 

[Blumlein 88]

What I am saying is, parameters like dynamic range, distortion and S/N had hit the theoretical limits for 16/44 sources (for complete built up products). Now we have 24/192 sources and the D/A converters are nowhere near equivalent limits.

On a 16/44 source level playing field, modern D/As (including plenty of Amir's tests it would seem) are doing rather poorly in overall S/N. I've asked Amir to put 16/44 tests (as the majority of most people's sources are derived from 16/44 and that would allow meaningful comparisons with players from yesteryear) but he seems to like 24/44.

You cannot make a fair comparison between CD players D/As of the past and D/As of today without 16/44 tests, replete with 0dBFS THD and S/N.

Okay, well that is a little different than what I thought you were saying. I've looked at that a little, and with good DACs you get basically the limits of the 44/16 format. Maybe a formal test of the whole testing suite for at least a few would be good. Like I suspect most people here around 95% of my music is CD derived.