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The Etymotic Target (R.I.P. Harman)
- Thread starter Sharur
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As already mentioned the only exception where I find Harman to be bass-heavy are binaural recordings of common audio events happening in free field, as outside. It could be also the case for musical events in large halls, but even there tactile responses are lacking with headphones, so a certain bass lift would compensate for that (i.e. the psychoacoustic cues).
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
Neutral is boring and doesn't move on the sales floor to the average punter. The "Harman" preferred target is all about selling headphones to the masses, nothing more and nothing less. The reasons headphones like Harman's AKG 5/6/7xx aren't much sold in big box stores is they are more neutral and suited to people want a more accurate rendition of the actual recording, instead of a 1970s loudness contour that makes everything sound like a disco in your head. I mean, look at the world-wide success of Beats in the noughties.
At least the 1970s loudness contours were level sensitive and decreased as you approached the halfway point on your volume dial (50% loudness tap). Equal loudness curves anyone? To me, baked-into-the-product loudness contours, with sharp low and high cut filters like the "harman curve" are an absolute anathema to high fidelity reproduction. Neutrality is thrown out the window, sacrificed at the altar of sales success.
Audiophiles would be much better served with ostensibly flat headphones and variable loudness contours like Yamaha has incorporated for many decades into their products. Being a wholly subtractive and infinitely variable contour it's designed to closely track the equal loudness contours and doesn't result in overdriving amplifiers or drivers like EQ often does.
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I think it is well established that flat bass in a headphone or in-room response of a loudspeaker is NOT neutral. We’ve had trained listeners draw the perceived spectral balance of these targets and they are perceived as not flat.
Toole spent 10 years having listeners rate loudspeaker based on perceived fidelity/neutrality. When we switched to preference, the loudspeakers ratings didn’t suddenly change. There is a high correlation between fidelity/neutrality/ preference.
Our headphone targets do not deviate significantly above 200 Hz from a anechoically flat speaker measured in our reference room at the DRP. For the AE/OE target it’s within 2 dB of the bass of the in-room speaker target. For the IE target it’s higher, but there are data to support it needs to be higher to be perceived as equivalent
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This is not a Harman in room target.
Neutral loudspeakers aren't flat in a well treated room. Its a downward slope. If you get a flat (horizontal) response in-room you started out with speakers with a big boost in the treble.
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restorer-john
Grand Contributor
Nope. I was keeping the discussion to headphones (subject of the thread), but if you want to include loudspeakers, by all means.
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I am quite careful to qualify that the Harman Target is optimized for stereo recordings which are made for speakers in rooms.
For binaural recordings and spatial rendering of HRTF sources a different target is likely needed. Dr Mead Killion at etymotic liked to make binaural recordings of jazz performances that were used to validate the headphones. I have often told him that while they may work for those recordings a different tuning is needed for stereo ones.
Obviously you want to ensure the ear canal resonance is not duplicated twice in the playback and manikin recording. Secondly the recording depending on how it was made may have sufficient bass from the room.
In fact this was confirmed by Facebook Reality Labs who recently published an AES paper showing that while the Harman Target was preferred for stereo recordings over DF, for binaural rendering of VR/AR material a different target is more optimal.
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Wait. Do you think the ear response shown in headphone measurements is boosted treble? That's how this post reads.
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As I said earlier the Harman Target has nothing to do with loudness contours as all the listening tests were done at average sound pressure levels well above where large growths in loudness in bass and treble occur.Neutral is boring and doesn't move on the sales floor to the average punter. The "Harman" preferred target is all about selling headphones to the masses, nothing more and nothing less. The reasons headphones like Harman's AKG 5/6/7xx aren't much sold in big box stores is they are more neutral and suited to people want a more accurate rendition of the actual recording, instead of a 1970s loudness contour that makes everything sound like a disco in your head. I mean, look at the world-wide success of Beats in the noughties.
At least the 1970s loudness contours were level sensitive and decreased as you approached the halfway point on your volume dial (50% loudness tap). Equal loudness curves anyone? To me, baked-into-the-product loudness contours, with sharp low and high cut filters like the "harman curve" are an absolute anathema to high fidelity reproduction. Neutrality is thrown out the window, sacrificed at the altar of sales success.
Audiophiles would be much better served with ostensibly flat headphones and variable loudness contours like Yamaha has incorporated for many decades into their products. Being a wholly subtractive and infinitely variable contour it's designed to closely track the equal loudness contours and doesn't result in overdriving amplifiers or drivers like EQ often does.
Loudness contours are based on static mostly band limited signals. Music is dynamic and can be very bandlimited or broadband. For that reason audio processing based on fixed loudness contours don’t work very well on music. To suggest that audiophiles use them seems counterproductive. In fact many audiophiles shudder at the thought of simple tone controls “corrupting “ the signal path so I doubt something more complex would be marketable.
The Beats success in early 2012-on had nothing to do with sound and everything to do with marketing. Measure a Beats headphone today and it is much more neutral than 5 years ago. Science finally caught up.
And the AKG series of headphones you mention were primarily aimed at musicians and audio professionals. That is the reason you never saw them in Big Box stores outside of Guitar Center. That has nothing to do with their sound being unappealing to consumers.
Having tested many audiophile products over the past 30 years I could argue that a common goal is not neutrality. Good engineering and science are often eschewed for voodoo marketing. If that were not the case, all audiophile amplifiers would all measure flat regardless of load and have no distortion. Speakers would all have flat on axis response and smooth sound power. Sadly that is not the case and more often than not, the more expensive and exotic the more the product deviates from neutrality.
With headphones it is even worse. There is little correlation between price and FR as shown by the large study done by Breebart in JASA in 2017, and in our work. There is no clear consensus on what is a neutral amongst audiophile headphone manufacturers. That is what motivated our research in the first place.... When you remove all the biases and do a controlled listening test only then does there seem to be consensus.
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A sine sweep is a bogus test. If the tones are supposed to be equally loud the headphone or loudspeaker will look like an equal loudness contour which will vary depending on the SPL
A better test for judging spectral balance is wideband noise and music. We used music.
A better test for judging spectral balance is wideband noise and music. We used music.
What does neutral speaker even mean? Constant directivity index (yes, including bass)? increasing directivity index with frequency? Which one is more neutral than the other? Why do you think so?
Which design do you chose for "well-treated" room and why do you dismiss others?
Is a resulting bass shelf in "harman speaker curve" result of speaker being not neutral enough, room not beign treated enough or is it correct and why?
Define smooth.
Just a note and a question. There are speakers that are ”flat” and those that have a slight sloping bass response in anechoic conditions to compensate for the cavity effect of the room. So which ones of these speakers are considered neutral?
solderdude
Grand Contributor
The ones that sound the most realistic in a given room ?
Well the cavity effect is something that very low in frequency mostly below 50 Hz. So if neutral is flat down to DC for static signals, would that affect the average Harman curve? (That is mostly in the tactile region, DC—50 Hz.)
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
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