Minidsp SHD Review Updated (DSP, DAC & Streamer)

[devteam]

I was not aware of the usb hub issue. I power my topping d50s via the USB port of my shd studio.

What kind of USB hub do I need? Do I need a hub with external power supply? Where can I find more details on this issue?

@ ironhorse128

There is zero issue "whatsover" to connect a "USB device" to a USB port of the SHD. Customers do it for ever, it has never been a problem.
It's a USB device, may it be a HUB, may it be a "USB device" (as in USB Host/device) that will "handshake" the power requirement to the USB host (aka the SHD) and let him know that indeed it can provide 500, 1A, 2A...

There IS an issue with connecting a non standard DIY cable that is being used in this case as a "trigger cable" that isn't a USB device but more of a USB cable with a coil, no thermistor (aka fuse to prevent the surge). This is the first time we see the inside of such cable few week ago and it's "not" a USB cable (i.e. USB standard).. What we already explained is that If somehow there is a surge, short circuit, such DIY cable won't have a mean to prevent current overdraw on the USB host port of the SHD .. Do the same to your laptop and very possible that indeed you will damage the supply if it doesn't have thermistor in place. Why? Because that cable with a USB connector isn't a "USB device". That is what I pointed above as in we discovered this information.

@nothingman
We went through all that at great length in the support ticket (On June29 and Jul 2nd emails).

 

[nothingman]

Once again @devteam I’m crystal clear on all of your reasoning around the USB Host port because I’ve heard it a dozen times while we keep ignoring my much larger issue.

I think you’re the one who is mistaken here. @ironhorse128 can confirm but what I think they are saying is that they are using a USB type A-to-5.5mm barrel cable and using the SHD Studio’s USB Host port to provide 5V to the Topping D50S. They literally mean the SHD port powers the Topping.

This is the same straight wire with no protection scenario you are explaining about the trigger, but with a much higher current draw than my comparatively benign 0.5-2a of a 12V trigger circuit. Personally it wouldn’t have occured to me to trust that 5V USB Host port with powering a standalone DAC, but all of your same advice about using a USB hub applies here too. Except @ironhorse128 still has no clear instructions on what to because they still haven’t been provided.

 

[devteam]

Tony
Appreciate your responses here. I have no skin in the game nor am i trying to stir up the pot but while i am not currently a minidsp owner, i "was" going to buy an shd before I read this thread. As such, i am following this to its closure. Based upon your above responses I am back open to reconsidering a shd purchase.
As with every disagreement between 2 parties, each has their own perception of what has happened and the longer it lives, the deeper both parties dig in their heels. I do find it sad that it has come to this and this could not have been resolved as it "appears" that is what you both want. Its just how to go about finding a mutually acceptable solution. Unfortunately, it appears to have gone beyond that point until someone is going to back down.

I am sure there are a lot of details that have been left out but I am interested in knowing your response regarding @nothingman claim you ghosted him. With him in the US and you in Asia, what other forms of communication are available (other than email) to work with customers who have questions or problems? If minidsp ignores or ghosts someone then minidsp has cutoff all communication paths. This is unacceptable imho and if this is how customers are dealt with (Even if they are a pain in the butt and persistent) I want to know now as that business practice is one that i avoid when picking my vendors.

Just to reiterate the obvious, we all make mistakes or have problems we encounter (product problems, timelines that arent met, etc) but what differentiates business leaders from those that dont survive is how they respond to those mistakes/problems.

PS - if the testing of second unit was that important to learn from, i would pay to get that unit back, whatever the cost. That is the cost of education.

@muslhead

In answer to your question, I'm not sure what happened here but I wouldn't per say summarize this whole effort from both side as "ghosting"..
In the past weeks that we tried to solve the issue but we've been in constant talk with the Tony writing within 24h and sometimes twice a day ( timezone permitting). The log shows a ticket still open on the last reply 24days ago where he mentioned that the psu change didn't solve the issue and that he was planning to send it back to us as we already suggested steps to do so (zero cost).

This is where my team most likely misunderstood (putting ticket as PENDING) and just assumed that at one point, we'd be warned that the unit is coming back from repair.. That's all there is to read from a short chat with the Support team.
I'd love to give more drama to this story and say that we're ignoring every support ticket, that we're the worst support team, that we've been in biz for 11years not helping any single customer... ;-) But the truth is unfortunately less dramatic... We do answer all support tickets and whoever is in support will know that it's always a hard job to make everybody happy.. Majority of cases work, other don't work. It's tough seeing a case overshadowing all the work that goes behind making a product and company great. I'm sure there are very happy customers in this thread on their unit, who communicated with us, got help/support.. Does that mean that this specific unfortunate case is going to define miniDSP? I personally know for a fact that it's not as we do receive praise support as well.. I also know that we're not perfect, we all learn from experience and move forward rather than in the rear mirror.

 

[devteam]

Once again @devteam I’m crystal clear on all of your reasoning around the USB Host port because I’ve heard it a dozen times while we keep ignoring my much larger issue.

I think you’re the one who is mistaken here. @ironhorse128 can confirm but what I think they are saying is that they are using a USB type A-to-5.5mm barrel cable and using the SHD Studio’s USB Host port to provide 5V to the Topping D50S. They literally mean the SHD port powers the Topping.

This is the same straight wire with no protection scenario you are explaining about the trigger, but with a much higher current draw than my comparatively benign 0.5-2a of a 12V trigger circuit. Personally it wouldn’t have occured to me to trust that 5V USB Host port with powering a standalone DAC, but all of your same advice about using a USB hub applies here too. Except @ironhorse128 still has no clear instructions on what to because they still haven’t been provided.

Oh wow... In that case, we indeed completely missed that... Thanks for pointing this out... I didn't realize that it would be how the USB port is being used..


@ironhorse128 , knowing what I learned, NO you shouldn't use a USB to DC cable to power your DAC. Your DAC has an external AC-DC power supply. PLease use that power supply to power your dac as it will have all the protection you need from lighting surge and safety certification. If somehow your D50S has a shortcircuit, the USB surge will travel back to the SHD and damage it. It would be 100% the same if you had a PC/Mac supply, you would damage that port. You shouldn't use these USB to DC cable. These are not safe device for operation of the SHD as they simply aren't USB device, they are very questionable.

 

[mdsimon2]

I imagine @ironhorse128 is using a normal USB A cable to power the D50S as originally assumed by @devteam as it can be powered by the USB port (to my knowledge no separate power supply is even provided by Topping) and with the SHD Studio he wouldn't be using the USB input.

EDIT: Just realized that Topping does provide a USB to barrel cable (designed to be used with phone charger type power supply) which could definitely be an issue if being used to power the D50S. Either way simple enough solution to just a USB A cable from the SHD Studio for power.

Michael

 

[nothingman]

@muslhead

In answer to your question, I'm not sure what happened here but I wouldn't per say summarize this whole effort from both side as "ghosting"..
In the past weeks that we tried to solve the issue but we've been in constant talk with the Tony writing within 24h and sometimes twice a day ( timezone permitting). The log shows a ticket still open on the last reply 24days ago where he mentioned that the psu change didn't solve the issue and that he was planning to send it back to us as we already suggested steps to do so (zero cost):
"I know my only course of action is to send it back, this time to HK. Right now I'm not willing to do that. I'm in the middle of a new subwoofer integration after it sat in a box for a month waiting for my SHD to return, and I'm not going to go another month without a system so soon.
When I find a good time later this year I plan to arrange to send it back. For now, while annoying and an indication there's a problem somewhere, I don't think the sound is causing any damage to my other equipment given that it's not loud. "

This is where my team most likely misunderstood (putting ticket as PENDING) and just assumed that at one point, we'd be warned that the unit is coming back from repair.. That's all there is to read from a short chat with the Support team.
I'd love to give more drama to this story and say that we're ignoring every support ticket, that we're the worst support team, that we've been in biz for 11years not helping any single customer... ;-) But the truth is unfortunately less dramatic... We do answer all support tickets and whoever is in support will know that it's always a hard job to make everybody happy.. Majority of cases work, other don't work. It's tough seeing a case overshadowing all the work that goes behind making a product and company great. I'm sure there are very happy customers in this thread on their unit, who communicated with us, got help/support.. Does that mean that this specific unfortunate case is going to define miniDSP? I personally know for a fact that it's not as we do receive praise support as well.. I also know that we're not perfect, we all learn from experience and move forward rather than in the rear mirror.

Oh, that’s just plain rotten to post that excerpt from our private communication. You know how exasperated I was at that point. You know I requested a swap over and over and over again and you refused. I had been completely stonewalled.

You want to post excerpts? Fine. Here’s some excerpts. This is way too much to expect others to read in full but I can’t allow miniDSP to post one small snippet of one email to act like I was cool with everything.

There was a lot of back and forth through this process, this wasn’t just me badgering them constantly.

May 21

I'll wait to hear back and I have my fingers crossed that there's something that I can do from here. However, if this unit requires physical service then I want to ask miniDSP to authorize a swap with George to a new unit. This unit is from February and now it's apparently bricked by May. That's just not acceptable.

May 25 (after days of extensive troubleshooting and documentation)

I’m being asked to spend hours doing the testing that should be happening on a bench in Colorado or Hong Kong while the customer is happily using a working unit with minimal interruption. It’s clear you know you have a problem on your hands with my unit, but you value your monetary cost of a fast replacement over my cost of time, effort, satisfaction, and peace of mind. That thinking is flawed and what will always limit miniDSP’s appeal.

May 25

When we talk about "repair service," I just want to reiterate my expecation that I will not be made to wait for you to fix this actual unit. It was delivered to me on February 28. Less than three months later, I'm five days into working on this problem and showing you exactly what's wrong. That is enough effort from a customer to warrant a quick swap while you tear this thing apart in HK - on your own time - to figure out what went wrong.

May 26

I don’t have a good feeling about what you’re saying about it being up to dealers and about Deer Creek’s term and conditions. That’s awfully vague and sounds like a manufacturer deflecting responsibility, but I’ll talk to George before saying more. He’s always been great to deal with.

June 4

Any chance you guys are still there in HK and can tell George to send me a new unit before the weekend starts? You specifically said that you wanted my failing unit on your test bench in HK. Now that George has verified the failure I think that means I’m due a full replacement. It’s been three weeks and one day since the first failure, and even if he sends me a new unit today by the time it arrives that will be one month without an audio system because of my miniDSP SHD’s reliability problem. I’ve done everything asked and been patient. Now fix this for me. Thank you.

June 6

I’m just going to ask one more time, as politely as I can, please make this right as quickly as possible. If that means covering the cost of a replacement to be sent to me ASAP on Monday, then that’s what it should be. Please do not drag me into a repair process.

Just replace the unit. That’s the right thing to do, and what I firmly believe most companies would. I know you and George have your terms and conditions. I’m talking about doing the right thing, not just whatever is in your fine print.

You can take all the time you want to analyze the unit and figure out what went wrong. In the meantime, you have a customer who paid their $1300 and has nothing to show for it right now. That needs to be fixed before anything.

June 24 (the unit comes back from the repair with the noise problem)

This sort of problem is exactly why I begged for a full swap. You would be able to assess not just the board but the whole unit on your bench if we had done the swap, and I would be free from a unit with problems hiding elsewhere and could move on. Instead, we're all back here talking to one another (something I know neither of your enjoy doing with me) about problems with this unit that you say aren't seen anywhere else around the world. I believe you said the same thing about the original problem this time, but George verified the malfunction and proved it wasn't user error, and you definitely said the same thing about the remote control issue I reported earlier this year, and then I proved with a single video that you had bugs in your remote firmware and you issued a fix globally.

June 28

You said something funny in your email on Friday. At the end you said it would be "easiest" for me to send the unit to you. Easiest. I already spent a month without an audio system. Already spent $35 shipping the unit back to George for repair. Already took the time to reintegrate it into my system. And now you want me to pull it back out and pack it up and ship it across the world? It's easiest for you and you only. You sit there while a customer suffers all the consequences.

Would it really be so bad to help out a customer with a fresh unit altogether? You really don't see how that's the right thing to do considering I already sent it in once?

Finally, July 4 and 9 in full, screenshot attached. No, I didn’t ask a direct question, but read that last paragraph again. The door was open to make this right, or at least acknowledge the part they sent me didn’t work, and they passed.

 

[devteam]

@ nothingman

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing at all the fact that you're upset on the situation and feel sorry that posting this excerpt is seen like this.. I was literally just answering to the specific comment that we were ghosting you.. As I stated above, it wasn't bad intentioned, I simply copy and pasted the section I thought relevant as I wasn't involved in the back and forth once again. I now removed this section from my thread.

At this stage, I'll respectfully bow out of the discussion as I'm not sure further engagement from my part is seen as helpful in the open looking at how far the animosity goes. I don't think that my involvement helps as It sounds as every word I say is going to make it worse.. :-( I've tried to clarify few things and apologized multiple times above for the mishap on this case, but I don't think that it will solve the situation.

I can only say that I will talk to George, we will see what's possible to help. Beyond that, it's possible that with all the comments above, you already did make your decision that miniDSP isn't right for you? Is that possible? We do our utmost best to help. If some customers are extremely unhappy, is it possible that maybe you just need another platform to fit all your needs? This experience is obviously not enjoyable and loosing a customer is the worst as we feel that we would have failed you on the other hand, life is quite short and obviously we don't want to be such a thorn in someones heart... Audio enjoyment remains key..

 

[nothingman]

Frankly I’m shocked you’ve let this go on as long as you have without just fixing the situation. I say that about the whole affair since May 21, not just this public portion, in which, I think I must agree, you haven’t helped yourself.

You misunderstand me and probably always have. There is no animosity. I’m just disappointed and expect more. I think anyone would feel the same. You can see that in the conversation before you arrived.

There’s a reason I paid for your product, and here’s an honest compliment, the design itself shows an incredible amount of thought and care anticipating customer’s needs. That’s no small thing and takes real effort and skill. I don’t want another preamp in my system. But for my hard earned $1300 naturally I want it to work properly, and that’s where you standing behind your product matters. Your understanding of customer satisfaction can’t just end once you’re done with the design and manufacturing.

The door is still open @devteam and I think people are watching what you will do. I’m under six months into a one year warranty. There’s no reason you couldn’t swap this faulty unit and show that you’ll take responsibility when something big goes wrong. That’s the test for any manufacturer.

To suggest I take my business elsewhere at this stage is again that defeatist streak cropping up. You think you’ve tried everything, but the most obvious solution has been sitting there the whole time.

 

[devteam]

Ohh... I didn't say I'd give up... Not sure how it came up to that conclusion.. I just say I'd shut up..
I did say few times that I was talking to George (aka the Dealer in question who sold the unit) and was very much hoping for you to enjoy your SHD to come to a conclusion. I will say it again so there isn't any confusion or misunderstanding of my stance..

That's exactly why I find forum/emails extremely hard in such situations... :-( I was simply trying to extend an olive branch in the event that you felt that you found everything wrong with miniDSP, the product and this experience.. that is all.. We're extremely happy to see that you do find the SHD useful to your application and thanks for the feedback.

 

[tw99]

Don’t really see why you need to talk to the dealer a lot… in the grand scheme of things it would cost you, the manufacturer, much less to swap this unit for another one, given the likely sales you’ve already lost from people reading this thread.

 

[ironhorse128]

@ ironhorse128

There is zero issue "whatsover" to connect a "USB device" to a USB port of the SHD. Customers do it for ever, it has never been a problem.
It's a USB device, may it be a HUB, may it be a "USB device" (as in USB Host/device) that will "handshake" the power requirement to the USB host (aka the SHD) and let him know that indeed it can provide 500, 1A, 2A...

There IS an issue with connecting a non standard DIY cable that is being used in this case as a "trigger cable" that isn't a USB device but more of a USB cable with a coil, no thermistor (aka fuse to prevent the surge). This is the first time we see the inside of such cable few week ago and it's "not" a USB cable (i.e. USB standard).. What we already explained is that If somehow there is a surge, short circuit, such DIY cable won't have a mean to prevent current overdraw on the USB host port of the SHD .. Do the same to your laptop and very possible that indeed you will damage the supply if it doesn't have thermistor in place. Why? Because that cable with a USB connector isn't a "USB device". That is what I pointed above as in we discovered this information.

@nothingman
We went through all that at great length in the support ticket (On June29 and Jul 2nd emails).

Thanks for the clarification

 

[devteam]

Don’t really see why you need to talk to the dealer a lot… in the grand scheme of things it would cost you, the manufacturer, much less to swap this unit for another one, given the likely sales you’ve already lost from people reading this thread.

Good question: Contractually, he's a customer of the dealer and that's the path for repair/replacement as it's standard in any dealer/manufacturer scenario. This is a non issue at this state as I already talked to the dealer to get up to speed and who will solve this issue organizing a replacement.

 

[nothingman]

Don’t really see why you need to talk to the dealer a lot… in the grand scheme of things it would cost you, the manufacturer, much less to swap this unit for another one, given the likely sales you’ve already lost from people reading this thread.

I don’t get this either. The owner of miniDSP can’t do a swap directly with a customer? As if the dealer would make a fuss over being left out of this mess entirely?

Good question: Contractually, he's a customer of the dealer and that's the path for repair/replacement as it's standard in any dealer/manufacturer scenario. This is a non issue at this state as I already talked to the dealer to get up to speed and who will solve this issue organizing a replacement.

Finally, there it is in writing. A replacement. This is news to me because I haven’t heard anything directly yet.

@devteam it occurs to me to make sure we’re perfectly clear here. This replacement will be a new, factory sealed, latest revision unit, exactly as if someone purchased today? A truly fresh start?

 

[dkinric]

At this point, @devteam , the cost of a new replacement, delivered quickly, is the best (and least costly) investment you can make in the future of your company. Considering the amount of negative exposure this has received, and from this audience especially, the alternative could be disastrous.
Speaking for myself, I have the SHD on a shortlist of my next major upgrade. Knowing I was rolling the dice with that amount of money has me reconsidering already...

 

[muslhead]

At this point, @devteam , the cost of a new replacement, delivered quickly, is the best (and least costly) investment you can make in the future of your company. Considering the amount of negative exposure this has received, and from this audience especially, the alternative could be disastrous.
Speaking for myself, I have the SHD on a shortlist of my next major upgrade. Knowing I was rolling the dice with that amount of money has me reconsidering already...

I am too on the fence but what is disappointing regardless of what the eventual outcome is, it took peer group pressure and negative exposure to get them to respond.
A company with the right standards and ethics will ALWAYS do the right thing regardless of what pressure or exposure they receive. Its the leader that sets the standard for the company, not the other way around and as such these decisions are a reflection of their management.

 

[nothingman]

At this point, @devteam , the cost of a new replacement, delivered quickly, is the best (and least costly) investment you can make in the future of your company. Considering the amount of negative exposure this has received, and from this audience especially, the alternative could be disastrous.
Speaking for myself, I have the SHD on a shortlist of my next major upgrade. Knowing I was rolling the dice with that amount of money has me reconsidering already...

I am too on the fence but what is disappointing regardless of what the eventual outcome is, it took peer group pressure and negative exposure to get them to respond.
A company lead with the right standards and ethics would ALWAYS do the right thing regardless of what pressure or exposure they receive. Its the leader that sets the standard for the company, not the other way around and as such is a reflection of their management.

Thank you both. I appreciate you speaking up.

It’s indeed very unfortunate it came to this. I made every attempt and gave them every chance to do the right thing privately. I didn’t even expect them to show up here, but once they did, I’m glad you all got a firsthand look at what I’ve been dealing with and could easily imagine what it would be like if you had my bad luck with a failed unit.

 

[simbloke]

This is a very sad tale and does not reflect well on MiniDSP. The SHD is expensive and the customer should not have to deal with sending things back to HK.

Where I live, at least, it's the retailer's responsibility to replace/repair the unit. They can then deal with sending things back and diagnosing the problem. Had this been done then the customer would have been happy and none of the rest of us would have ever heard anything about it. Would that not have been better for you too MiniDSP?

P.S. I followed this thread because I was very interested in MiniDSP. Was.

 

[muslhead]

This is a very sad tale and does not reflect well on MiniDSP. The SHD is expensive and the customer should not have to deal with sending things back to HK.

Where I live, at least, it's the retailer's responsibility to replace/repair the unit. They can then deal with sending things back and diagnosing the problem. Had this been done then the customer would have been happy and none of the rest of us would have ever heard anything about it. Would that not have been better for you too MiniDSP?

P.S. I followed this thread because I was very interested in MiniDSP. Was.

Minidsp, I think, has bowed out. Good thing as the hole he was in was only getting deeper with each post.
I do think though, he realizes the damage that has been done and no matter what is done to rectify, it wont make it disappear. The diving catch in the end zone was fumbled.

I have learned that once that trust has been lost (by the community), it takes a long time to build it back and it will not be fixed by finally doing the right thing for @nothingman. Somehow these posts seem to find their way to the top of search engines results for a long time. The internet can be both a blessing and curse for businesses.

 

[nothingman]

Folks, you are not going to believe this. Attached is the email I just got from the miniDSP’s US dealer. This is the very first time I’ve received any private message from anyone since this public airing started.

The want me to pack up my SHD without having a replacement first, leaving me without an audio and TV system for a second time, and send it to them in Colorado so that they can “verify the the problem and remedy as appropriate.”

They are not sending me a new SHD so that I can continue on with my life.

They are not promising to replace it with a new unit, but are instead going to run diagnostics and then presumably try to repair it again.

They didn’t even provide me a shipping label back to Colorado so they expect me to pay another $35 to get it there.

@devteam This is not right. Do you not understand the damage you are doing to yourself? Clear as day, you just said publicly that you were arranging a replacement. That means something. That does not mean me sending in my unit to go on a test bench again. I can’t possibly imagine your reasoning behind this.

Please, people. Help me here.

 

[nothingman]

Does anyone personally know @devteam / miniDSP who can talk some sense into them about how poorly they are handling this in full public view?