Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[alanca3]

Late to the party:

I also find a score of 7.3 which can jump up to 7.7 with 1 PEQ. There is not much to correct so I think only the first one is relevant.
This is the best speaker measured so far. It will be better than Genelec 8361 because it dips lower.

EQ for Dutch Dutch 8C computed from ASR data
Preference Score 7.4 with EQ 8.1
Generated from http://github.com/pierreaubert/spinorama/generate_peqs.py v0.6
Dated: 2021-03-06-07:35:38

Preamp: -0.8 dB

Filter  1: ON PK Fc 10463 Hz Gain -1.66 dB Q 0.58
Filter  2: ON PK Fc  2423 Hz Gain +0.84 dB Q 3.68
Filter  3: ON PK Fc   407 Hz Gain -1.53 dB Q 5.70
Filter  4: ON PK Fc 11990 Hz Gain +0.71 dB Q 9.48

I had some trouble to generate the score because there is no -6 db point in the measurements that is used to compute the lfx components.

View attachment 116535

Thanks Erin for the data and the review. Great work!

This is my favorite summary layout so far. Everything you would want to know (other than distortion) in one spot, and with no paragraphs cluttered between graphs.

 

[John Atkinson]

This is also interesting

View attachment 117043
from Stereophile

To me, by far the most interesting speaker posted at ASR.

As always I would like posters to include a link to the Stereophile page when they post one of my graphs. In this case it's https://www.stereophile.com/content/dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeaker-system-measurements

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

[Vini darko]

As always I would like posters to include a link to the Stereophile page when they post one of my graphs. In this case it's https://www.stereophile.com/content/dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeaker-system-measurements

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

Good read thanks.

 

[tktran303]

John,

Any plans to get the Klippel acoustic field scanner in the future?

The cost of entry seems low, compared to how much some audiophile components cost.

I’ve always enjoyed Stereophile since 1995; for the technical measurements and interpretation, as well as the human subjective interpretation.

Nowadays I come to ASR, but the subjective interpretation is not as good.

For newbies to hi-fi; who think that one can tell how good a speaker is, by a set of visual graphs...

well I’ve been in this game long enough to know that, yes, we know more and more as measurements get better, but not all that can be measured matters and not all that matters can be measured.

For instance 5.25” 2 way doesn’t sound like 7” 2-way, which doesn’t like a 3 way. And manufacturer A’s speaker X doesn’t like like manufacturers B speaker Y. And or a line array or a single driver speaker doesn’t sound like each other, and a monopole has pros and cons that a cardioid or a dipole may or may not have. There’s no one best speaker; and it doesn’t matter what the squiggly lines or the newest and shiniest metrics (eg. Harman preference rating, CTA 2034/spinorama) says...

So I still enjoy the subjective interpretations of people who may be inclined to hear what I hear, or biased towards or against what I am.

 

[richard12511]

That being said, the Dutch & Dutch 8C certainly has a much more constant or uniform directivity than most speakers and is a well designed speaker. But it still changes quite a bit (for example from 100° to 140° within a quite sensible area) and there are speakers that a have a more uniform dispersion than this.

What would be some examples of good constant directivity speakers(narrow or wide)?

 

[richard12511]

Nah, that tiny crossover dip in the off-axis is unacceptable, they need to now make an even crazier tower version to make up for it. Do I hear a 4-driver front baffle with dual midrange drivers and 4 8” subs on the rear (8 total, equivalent to a single ~23” sub)?

This would be awesome!

 

[Dialectic]

This would be awesome!

As mentioned above, I'd probably buy it even if it did not make an audible difference. Would have to get it in the original natural oak finish that I've not seen in some time from D&D...

 

[HammerSandwich]

simple... LR 24dB octave.
it is the same as 2500Hz LR 12 dB octave as in seas specs.

It's not that simple (as usual with speaker design). Both LR2 & LR4 crossover points are at -6dB, so the LR4's using twice the excursion at 2500Hz in your example. And that difference increases over the next octave. The steeper slope comes into play eventually, but excursions don't match until 600Hz. (A Butterworth2 @ 2500 would fall in the middle, because it would be only -3dB at XO.)

LR2/4 comparison:

 

[richard12511]

It's also more than double the cost of Genelec 8351B + W371A, for another competitor.... pretty crazy price.

The prices actually aren't that different in the US. BXT is $9,500, while the W371a is $9,000. Total system cost is like $26,000 vs $35,000. Would be really fun to compare them with each other, alongside whatever tower solution D&D makes for the 8C.

I'd actually take the 8351b + W371A over the Kii+BXT, even if they were the same price . It has the 50Hz cardioid bass mode like the BXT, and it also has 2 additional modes that are (from what I gather) perhaps even more sophisticated.

Still, both W371 and BXT seem overpriced in comparison to the excellent value you get with the 8C, Kii 3, or MEG speakers. If this speaker can hit 105dB at 4m in Erin's room, then that's likely loud enough for almost any situation. Really hope Amir or Erin can get their hands on a Kii 3 to see how it stacks up. From measurements I've seen, it may have slightly wider dispersion.

 

[Emlin]

. Really hope Amir or Erin can get their hands on a Kii 3 to see how it stacks up. From measurements I've seen, it may have slightly wider dispersion.

Yep, I'd like to see those measurements. BXT, too.

 

[Frank Dernie]

LOL, I will let you off the hook.

I did get the fab shop to make some stands which I sketched for my NS1000M speakers but that was around 40 years ago.
I also got the manufacturing department to get quotes for a short run of enclosures using my Goldmund Mimesis 22 as a "pattern" since one of my colleagues fancied making a high end preamp and it was the nicest made one we had seen.
It is made of ally plate and held together by bolts through battens into blind holes (the most expensive to machine) and it turned out in a small batch (20 iirc) the enclosure would cost £7000 each to make!
I can see why most are a folded steel box with a fancy faceplate

 

[Absolute]

Regarding distortion, I've done experiments on that exact thing with Kii Three and my poor man's version of BXT after I was mind-blown by BXT in demo.

It matters. It matters alot. No question about it, small speakers with limited capacity cannot compete with more capable stuff when it comes to bass quality.
Crossing my poor man's BXTs over at 200-250 hz compared to Kii alone simply changed the visceral impact of the sound, even at moderate (75-80 dB) levels.

One thing to consider when choosing to go full-range with a small stand-mount speaker like Kii or Dutch is that you'll have SBIR effects from the floor/ceiling that the cardioide won't help you with. Usually a wide-ish dip in the midbass around 100-150 hz depending on distance from the driver to the floor/ceiling.

Compensation for that will eat capacity in an area where those speakers are already struggling with the distortion (due to phase cancellation from cardioide?) and might actually end up reaching the limits before the lower end does.
I've posted these measurements so many times before that I won't spam them in here as well, but we're talking near 20 dB reduction in distortion with subs at 75-80 dB after Audiolense compensating for dips in that 150-250 hz region.

Audibility then doesn't really become a question, it's a given. The question we should be asking is if the sacrifice in distortion is worth it to achieve better directivity?

Below 300 hz I'm not sure, really. Perhaps.

 

[FrantzM]

Which is 3X the cost and has over 90ms of latency...

The prices actually aren't that different in the US. BXT is $9,500, while the W371a is $9,000. Total system cost is like $26,000 vs $35,000. Would be really fun to compare them with each other, alongside whatever tower solution D&D makes for the 8C.

I'd actually take the 8351b + W371A over the Kii+BXT, even if they were the same price . It has the 50Hz cardioid bass mode like the BXT, and it also has 2 additional modes that are (from what I gather) perhaps even more sophisticated.

Still, both W371 and BXT seem overpriced in comparison to the excellent value you get with the 8C, Kii 3, or MEG speakers. If this speaker can hit 105dB at 4m in Erin's room, then that's likely loud enough for almost any situation. Really hope Amir or Erin can get their hands on a Kii 3 to see how it stacks up. From measurements I've seen, it may have slightly wider dispersion.

Hi
+1 to the above.

105 dB @ 4 meters is, in my book and many other's, LOUD. Seems that @mitchco got similar, if not identical results in his room. This is a discussion forum after all, we will discuss and debate. It remains that, aside from the THD performance @ 96 dB that is not great, this speaker represents a stunning achievement. Its price is frankly commensurate with the superlative performance. A complete audio system that requires , no additional amp, no DAC, cables, no subwoofers, to achieve in-room the ideal and mythical 20 to 20,000 Hz at any healthy (or unhealthy) SPL and it bears to repeat it, in-room, this D&D 8C is a benchmark.
It is rare to see a manufacturer execute its design philosophy to such a successful extent. Kudus to D&D.

 

[fredoamigo]

In 90% of the cases the Kii 3 and the 8C will suffice in SPL levels for a relatively large room but I have to admit that if you want to listen to "realistic" levels ( more than1OOdb) I was a little frustrated in my 42m2 room with 3M ceiling with the Kii for the "realistic" levels (withoutBXT ) same thing for the 8C ...but well, the "realistic" levels only concern very rare moments in all the other cases, they behave very well without audible limitation nor distortion at very comfortable levels.
If the SPL limitation was the only price to pay for this fantastic loudspeaker I would pay it with my eyes closed ! because subjectively I have never listened to anything better.

 

[hardisj]

Yep, I'd like to see those measurements. BXT, too.

I will try reaching out to the folks at Purifi and see if they might be willing to entertain the notion of sending me a loaner set to test if you guys want. Maybe with enough “likes”, I can show them this post so they know people are interested in me testing it. I don’t want to ask just for the sake of it.

That said, I currently know little about the Kii 3 and its place in the market. Is it a direct competitor of the DD8c? Or is there enough difference between the two - in design - that they aren’t entirely the same?

 

[Juhazi]

Regarding distortion, I've done experiments on that exact thing with Kii Three and my poor man's version of BXT after I was mind-blown by BXT in demo.

It matters. It matters alot. No question about it, small speakers with limited capacity cannot compete with more capable stuff when it comes to bass quality.
Crossing my poor man's BXTs over at 200-250 hz compared to Kii alone simply changed the visceral impact of the sound, even at moderate (75-80 dB) levels.

One thing to consider when choosing to go full-range with a small stand-mount speaker like Kii or Dutch is that you'll have SBIR effects from the floor/ceiling that the cardioide won't help you with. Usually a wide-ish dip in the midbass around 100-150 hz depending on distance from the driver to the floor/ceiling.

Compensation for that will eat capacity in an area where those speakers are already struggling with the distortion (due to phase cancellation from cardioide?) and might actually end up reaching the limits before the lower end does.
I've posted these measurements so many times before that I won't spam them in here as well, but we're talking near 20 dB reduction in distortion with subs at 75-80 dB after Audiolense compensating for dips in that 150-250 hz region.

Audibility then doesn't really become a question, it's a given. The question we should be asking is if the sacrifice in distortion is worth it to achieve better directivity?

Below 300 hz I'm not sure, really. Perhaps.

I am with you, a (or pair of) potent low reaching subwoofer will make system sound much better, by reducing distortion and extending response below 40Hz.

But I don't think that boosting typical first reflection nulling at 100-200Hz is needed. Seems like Audiolense wants to do that like Dirac. But it is old wisdom, that boosting driver spl where room response at LP suffers from nulling is forbidden! The right way to handle that is to find new placement for speakers, subs and spot! Wall and ceiling reflections may sometimes be damped with panels, but floor is imposible.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/early-reflections-101/
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/elephant-control-room

 

[Juhazi]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kii-three-versus-dutch-dutch-8c.1282/.
https://pura-audio.nl/en/2019/06/17/to-dd-8c-or-kii-three/

It would be wonderful to see smilar set of 3D measurements for both! Kii has less directivity above 500hz.

 

[hardisj]

That said, I know nothing about the Kii 3. Is it a direct competitor of the DD8c? Or is there enough difference between the two - in design - that they aren’t entirely the same?

https://pura-audio.nl/en/2019/06/17/to-dd-8c-or-kii-three/

Thank you for that link. It appears to me the two are similar in purpose but there is enough difference in design, certainly in terms of size, that they aren't expected to be 100% direct competitors.

Image linked from above:

 

[Absolute]

I am with you, a (or pair of) potent low reaching subwoofer will make system sound much better, by reducing distortion and extending response below 40Hz.

But I don't think that boosting typical first reflection nulling at 100-200Hz is needed. Seems like Audiolense wants to do that like Dirac. But it is old wisdom, that boosting driver spl where room response at LP suffers from nulling is forbidden! The right way to handle that is to find new placement for speakers, subs and spot! Wall and ceiling reflections may sometimes be damped with panels, but floor is imposible.

Boosting SBIR is not wise, it doesn't sound good. But boosting dips is common and will lower the headroom by the same amount we put into it, which is relevant in demonstrating the limits at normal/loud volumes.

Here's example, I'm sorry for different scaling;

Wrote about it here.

Cardioide isn't a free lunch, it steals capacity. Taking that cost may or may not be worth it depending on different stuff. These speakers are plenty for most living rooms, but not necessarily so for large ones or demanding use. And my point is that it's not necessarily the sub 100 hz that is the main problem here.

Kii and Dutch pay the same prize further up it seems from the distortion measurements.

If you want to place a speaker far away from a wall to avoid SBIR then the Dutch makes little sense over other speakers, imo.

 

[Koeitje]

Thank you for that link. It appears to me the two are similar in purpose but there is enough difference in design, certainly in terms of size, that they aren't expected to be 100% direct competitors.

Image linked from above:

Yep for the Kii Three there is a base/stand that acts as a sub.